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By montreal, March 29, 2005

Does your engine sound exactly like this when cold(read post first)?  

  1. 1. Does your engine sound exactly like this when cold(read post first)?

    • Yes, mine sounds exactly like the recording
      0
    • No
      0
    • Yes, but it sounds different
      0

See every reply in these pages:


I bought the car used, last December and when I checked it out (yes, I started it when the engine was cold) the engine did not exhibit this behaviour. After reading this thread I think it's possible that the computer has been reset (willingly or not) at the dealership.

There are a number of ways to willingly and accidentally prevent the noise from showing up (without a CEL light) at the inopertune moment when the vehicle changes owners:

1) pull the ECU fuse,

2) disconnect the battery,

3) pre-start the car for a short period of time up to 3 hours before the car is to be taken by the new owner,

4) let the car spend the previous night indoors in a fully or partially heated garage,

5) sell the car just before the really cold winter temperatures arrive,

6) leave the car outside in the winter sun for several hours.

My dealership had possession of my car for the purpose of witnessing and diagnosing this problem. On all three occasions, I had to let my car spend the night undisturbed in the dealer's parking lot so that the following morning the mechanic could be set up out there in the cold before the car was first started.

I was on hand for the first of the three trials. This car made the noise on the first two trials and reportedly not on the third and most critical trial which I was not there to witness. The third trial took place on a cold and snowy day and there were many cars backed up for emergency repairs that day and my mechanic did not get to my car before noon. Did the car really fail to make noise that third time or did they accidentially start the car before ready to procede or did they first drive the car inside their heated garage before beginning their repair attempt?

Out of the over 500 winter days when I have started my car since new, there have only been 1 or 2 occassions when my engine did NOT make this noise when it should have. On every other occassion, it has. As time goes on and this pattern gets more and more cast in stone, my belief that my dealership botched the third trial though negligence or otherwise, becomes stronger and stronger. In any case, my dealer did not want to perform a forth trial. I had to pay an independant garage to witness that the dealer's previous 2 attempts at fixing my car had failed.

My whole legal defense rests on the report from the independant garage which was delivered one week before the expiry of my 3 year warranty. Perhaps engine computers being part of the emission control system have a longer warranty, but ultimately, the problem could turn out to be related to something like the internal mechanical system which advances the valve timing, which would not have a warranty over 3 years.

Thanks for your comment and I hope you voted in the poll by checking off the YES box.

Bikeman982

That is the trouble with problems or symptoms that occur intermittently - they seldom repeat themselves when you want them to. Seems like your warranty is expired and you have limited options on repair that a dealer will cover.

That is the trouble with problems or symptoms that occur intermittently - they seldom repeat themselves when you want them to. Seems like your warranty is expired and you have limited options on repair that a dealer will cover.

While my problem does occur intermittantly, I can predict 498 times out of 500 when it will occur, providing I respect certain constraints.

When I left my car overnight with the dealership (just prior to the warranty expiring), I was not able to be present the following morning to assure that all the constraints were respected.

It would have looked better for me had the my car failed the third trial because in the dealer's eyes, this car passed his test two weeks before the warranty expired.

Fortunately, there was a private garage run by a former race car driver turned print and electronic media journalist, who was able to give my car a forth trial (which it failed) one week before my warranty expired.

My message to anyone attempting to accumulate a series of bills from the dealership showing that every attempt to fix the car under warranty has failed, is to park your car at the dealership the night before and keep your keys and rush back the following morning to make sure no hanky-panky takes place.

I feel confident that if your car has been misbehaving like mine, it will misbehave on cue in front of the witnesses provided you avoid all the 6 caveats that I listed in post number 76.

Bikeman982

That is the trouble with problems or symptoms that occur intermittently - they seldom repeat themselves when you want them to. Seems like your warranty is expired and you have limited options on repair that a dealer will cover.

While my problem does occur intermittantly, I can predict 498 times out of 500 when it will occur, providing I respect certain constraints.

When I left my car overnight with the dealership (just prior to the warranty expiring), I was not able to be present the following morning to assure that all the constraints were respected.

It would have looked better for me had the my car failed the third trial because in the dealer's eyes, this car passed his test two weeks before the warranty expired.

Fortunately, there was a private garage run by a former race car driver turned print and electronic media journalist, who was able to give my car a forth trial (which it failed) one week before my warranty expired.

My message to anyone attempting to accumulate a series of bills from the dealership showing that every attempt to fix the car under warranty has failed, is to park your car at the dealership the night before and keep your keys and rush back the following morning to make sure no hanky-panky takes place.

I feel confident that if your car has been misbehaving like mine, it will misbehave on cue in front of the witnesses provided you avoid all the 6 caveats that I listed in post number 76.

What did the private garage run by a former race car driver do that had any affect on the dealership??

 

 

What did the private garage run by a former race car driver do that had any affect on the dealership??

 

The former race car driver signed on his bill that he had witnessed my car's idle go up and down a number of times. I sent the service manager at my dealership a e-mail stating this.

He replied with the following message: "I did receive your e-mail and forwarded it to our T.A.S. department.

Like I had mentioned before at this point Toyota doesn't consider this situation to be abnormal and are not investigating any further. I also gave the info to the technician who had worked on the car for

personal information."

However, I continued to correspond by e-mail with the head office and they eventually came back to me with the statement: "We will be investigating this issue when the cold weather resumes".

I feel it was the results of the internet forum polls, and the suggestion that over 95% of forum members found this noise objectionable, that may have been responsible for the change of heart at head office.

The service manager at my dealership has since been sympathetic. Afterall, it wasn't his personal decision to throw in the towel. In fact he offered to keep on diagnosing the problem, but only if I footed the bill, as the head office had called it quits after paying for 5 hours of mechanics time and one O2 sensor.

Yes, the bill from the race car driver's garage is my only proof that this problem still existed during the week prior to the end of my warranty. I may need it dearly in 4 years time.

Bikeman982

It sounds as if Toyota was just going to blow it off (ignore it) until you generated enough evidence for them to feel it was a genuine concern. You are to be commended for your diligence in pursuing the issue on behalf of yourself and other Corolla owners. Hopefully something positive and constructive will come out of it and a real solution will be obtained. Keep up the pressure and the good work. I hope I represent well when I say that we stand behind you.

It sounds as if Toyota was just going to blow it off (ignore it) until you generated enough evidence for them to feel it was a genuine concern.

 

A year ago hardly anyone had heard about this issue. 2005 was the year people started coming forward.

As we all read through the various threads where we have voted and posted our opinions, we are left with the impression that this problem is all to prevalent and therefore Toyota/Pontiac should be rushing in to clean up this mess as soon as possible. In fact, when I look at the total membership of these different forums and compare that with the number who have voted (145 in 5 forums), I wonder how much I must downscale the 13.8% (across 5 polls) problem rate.

In other words, if you have this problem and are an internet automobile forum surfer, it is likely that you will come across one of these polls sooner or later and vote YES. On the other hand, if you don't have this problem, then even if you come across the threads, you may not bother to vote because that takes time away from other more urgent interests. Perhaps only 1% of the fleet have this problem.

So we must ask ourselves how high must the problem rate be before a major manufacturer considers it in its interest to launch am expensive investigation, knowing full well that the cure may be too costly to put into effect?

You are to be commended for your diligence in pursuing the isse on behalf of yourself and other Corolla wners. Hopefully something positive and constructive will come out of it and a real solution will be obtained. Keep up the pressure and the good work. I hope I represent well when I say that we stand behind you.

You have been very kind with your support and very generous for all the times you have posted followup comments on a regular basis to this thread and many others in this forum. You help keep these issues alive and provoke many of us to respond, otherwise these threads would drift into page 2.

Guest amember

1) pull the ECU fuse,2) disconnect the battery,
Hello, I'd like to try "resetting" computer.

 

Where do I find the ECU fuse?

Does it matter which pole of the battery do I disconnect?

Is there another way to reset the computer on a 2003 Corolla?

Thanks

-AMember

1) pull the ECU fuse,

2) disconnect the battery,

Hello, I'd like to try "resetting" computer.

 

Where do I find the ECU fuse?

Does it matter which pole of the battery do I disconnect?

Is there another way to reset the computer on a 2003 Corolla?

Thanks

-AMember

 

The fuse is called "EFI" and is in the under the hood fuse box (to right of air cleaner on Matrix) and it is rated 15 amps.

After pulling the fuse, let the car sit for at least 5 minutes to allow all internal capacitors of the ECU to discharge.

If you disconnect the battery, it doesn't matter which pole you choose, but I believe the red (positive) is easier to do. Also, the radio presets will be preserved, but the clock will need to be reset later. Leave the cable off for 5 minutes.

Computers can also be reset by pulling the connector off the IAC valve and then starting the car. This will cause the CEL light to come on within a few seconds. It is hard to release the plastic clip on the connector.

Shut off the engine as soon as the CEL light comes on and reconnect the IAC connector, then restart.

While the CEL will go off after 2 days, there may be a code that will stay in memory until your dealership resets it with a scan tool, so if you want to be discrete, the fuse or battery method is the way to go.

If I remember your original posting, you claimed that the noise was not present when you bought your car but soon appeared afterwards. I suppose that your proposed exercise of resetting your computer will help you prove to yourself or anyone else how easy it is to intentionally or accidentally mask the noise made by your car by disconnecting the battery.

Are you preparing yourself for some kind of confrontation with your dealership?

Bikeman982

Is that just a temporary solution?

Is that just a temporary solution?

 

Resetting the ECU memory by whatever means is not a temporary solution.

All it does is demonstrate that when the ECU uses the default fuel tables, it is capable of proposing a quantity of fuel and air which does not result in the cold idle rpms exceeding 1800.

As the ECU (in a car which has this issue) learns about the operating environment of the engine following a reset, it will alter the fuel tables and this will gradually increase the cold idle rpms over several days until they exceed 2300.

At 2300 rpms, there is a logic called FUEL CUT which kicks in and momentarily shuts off the fuel to allow the rpms to drop below a threshold. The purpose of the FUEL CUT logic is to allow your car (manual transmission) to slow down on compression without creating emissions when you take your foot off the gas pedal at high speed.

In our cars which have this issue, our engine computer does not know the difference between a deacceleration at high speed and a cold engine warming up in neutral with its rpms above a certain limit. In either case, the computer orders a temporarily fuel cut.

Suppose we could introduce an aftermarket timer which would reset our computer every night while our cars were sleeping. The benefit would be that our computers would be constantly using the default fuel tables and the cold idle rpms would remain at the normal level of 1800. Idle hunting would never occur.

But we would not have the benefit of what the computer learns (correctly or not) about the engine's environment over time. Thus the adaptation process would be constantly aborted. If we deny ourselves the benefit of the adaptation process, we may end up with more pollution and lower gas mileage.

The whole purpose of the adaptation (learning) process is to optimise the performance of the engine. The O2 sensor plays a leading role.

Toyota really has to determine what condition is so slightly wrong in our motors that results in the computer ordering a higher idle rpm. That means installing a sophisticated monitoring system in a car which has this issue. That would require a large amount of initiative and would lead to the real solution.

My 03 CE 5 speed has done this since new. Both Toyota and an independent mechanic say it's cosmetic and won't shorten engine life.

It does sound stupid when it occurs, but I have a 6 year Toyota extended warranty which will kick in if anything gets screwed up.

The fix for the sulphur "farts" didn't change the idle but certainly cut the "farts" to near zero.

My son's 03 LE automatic doesn't have the "hunting" idle.

I'll live with this unless a TSB comes out. If any prospective purchaser questioned the idle, I'd just tell them to call a Toyota dealer to confirm that this is a harmless cosmetic anomaly.

The fix for the sulphur "farts" didn't change the idle (on my 03 CE 5 speed) but certainly cut the "farts" to near zero.

 

Are you saying that you actually had your ECU re-flashed for sulphur (and possibly the cat changed as well) and your rpms at cold idle are still as high as before (2300 rpm?) and you still have the pulsing noise?

My son's 03 LE automatic doesn't have the "hunting" idle.

There have no reports of this problem in automatics, probably because the slight drag of the torque converter slow down the engine slightly so that it doesn't idle above the critical threshold at which point the pulsing starts. I can achieve the same result if I slightly feather my clutch with the tranmission in first to create a drag that reduces the rpms from 2300 to 2000. That puts an end to the pulsing. Your son's automatic may also not have the slight defect that causes the ECU to rev the engine higher than the typical 1800 rpms.

If any prospective purchaser questioned the idle, I'd just tell them to call a Toyota dealer to confirm that this is a harmless cosmetic anomaly.

If I were buying such a car and I had the choice of many identical cars in similar shape, I would avoid accepting the car with the idle hunting noise. Even with Toyota's confirmation that the issue is harmless, the burden of proving this and defending this would still fall on me when I would re-sell such a car.

Bikeman982

I concur that although the Toyota says it is normal that it would not be a good condition for a prospective buyer.

Yes, I had the "farts" TSB done including PCM reflash and new cat.

Almost cured the flatulence (in fact not one SBD was cut this winter so far). Alas, no effect on the hunting idle, but the TSB wasn't indicated as curing anything but the car's propensity to make you think you just had an accident in your pants.

Alas, no effect on the hunting idle, but the TSB wasn't indicated as curing anything but the car's propensity to make you think you just had an accident in your pants.

Thanks for your answer.

If your re-flash (and re-initialisation of the adaptation database) was done in winter, I imagine you had a couple of days without idle hunting until your rpms gradually increased and the idle hunting returned?

So it looks like the elimination of the idle hunting in one car following the application of this TSB is purely coincidental.

Bikeman982

What we need is a new program for the ECU that eliminates excessive variance in the feedback loop.

Mine was done in warm weather.

Bikeman982

Mine was done in warm weather.

Did it come back, or was that a permanent fix?

The TSB did what it was advertised to do (reduce sulphur "farts").

No effect in my case on the hunting idle on cold days.

Bikeman982

The TSB did what it was advertised to do (reduce sulphur "farts").

No effect in my case on the hunting idle on cold days.

Maybe they need a TSB to fix the hunting idle??

I havent come across that sound before, very weird, but our temperatures in Aus rarely drop below zero degrees C.

Bikeman982

I havent come across that sound before, very weird, but our temperatures in Aus rarely drop below zero degrees C.

Apparantly it does not happen in all cars, just in some.

Hello again, it's been nearly 8 months since I updated this thread.

Normally I would not want to bump it up to the front page until at least November, the month when the weather becomes cold enough to allow old and new members to be reminded that this problem is still there.

In late June 2005, I received a committment in writing from the head office of Toyota Canada that they would be "investigating this issue when the cold weather resumes".

Well the cold weather of winter 2005/2006 came and went without any news from headoffice.

By late summer 2006, I was becoming impatient and I contemplated creating a followup letter to Toyota headoffice asking for some concrete proof that some effort was going into this investigation.

I sent a letter to an automobile journalist who writes a weekly column in my local paper. I asked him what questions I should be asking Toyota under the circumstances. He didn't even bother to respond so our issue is either a taboo subject or too frivilous for his consideration.

Fortunately, a letter sent last month to the Automobile Protection Association (of Canada) fell on much more sympathetic ears, those of president George Iny.

George Iny co-hosts a call in radio show each week on a local AM radio station. He has invited me to call in, perhaps even be a guest.

I am preparing for this eventuallity and I am hopeful of getting the audio recording played on the air.

I even tried to sneak an e-mail about the pending radio program to the president of Toyota Canada, via the JAMA web site, of which he is also president. My e-mail was read at JAMA, but never an acknowledgement of it having been forwarded.

The reason I am setting up this post is that I want to formalize the fact that 2 of us voted YES in the poll attached to this thread.

While the poll is anonymous, there are posts in this thread made by 5 owners claiming to have the identical issue. Apparently, not everyone with the same problem voted in the poll located in the first post. Please do so now.

They are as follows in no particular order:

BobLevine '03 location:North Carolina

euzeka location:?

friend of Ti-Jean'03 Vibe location:?

amember '03 location:?

Montreal '03 (Matrix)location:Quebec

Do any of the listed owners want to add any comments about what has happened to their cars in the last 12 months?

Did any of you have additional work done above what you already mentioned in your posts in an attempt to correct this issue?

Nicknames are nice, but do you think that it would be a good idea for me to build a list of real names of the affected owners so that I can forward this list to the APA. If so, PM me and I'll send you my personal e-mail address.

Thanks

Mr. Ed

My 2004 Corolla (purchased new) just started making this sound. Any suggestions? I have 32,000 miles on it.



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