maybe because of the cold temperature in your place there is the tendency that the pcv valve remain stuck open or you have a defective PCV valve.

However because this problem starts and stops depending on whether the computer memory is reset, it is a design issue related to the pollution control parameters in the computer program.

If you want, you should ask them to help find out what it is (make sure you mention that pulling the fuse stop this for a few minute), and have them either troubleshoot it or send feed back to their engineers in the head quarter (maybe a bug in the ECU software?). Call Toyota head quarter and ask them to do something. Usually when you get the headquarter responsed things become easier.

They sent me back replies thanking me for my presentations and saying that my messages were being forwarded to the proper department.

This gave me a lot of hope, but one day, my service manager woke me up by saying that Head office had closed my case and said that my car is "not abnormal".

Then I forwarded the recording to my dealer and head office and for the first time I told them that they had made a big mistake in their handling of my case and they would pay dearly someday for their indifference.

Then I started this poll here on this site and on two other independant forums.

From the total responses, I think we are heading towards?, how do you spell that phrase?, oh ya, Class Action Law Suit on behalf of the handfull of owners who have posted as having the same issue.

Surprising how good and how bad a car company can become at the same time!

From the total responses, I think we are heading towards?, how do you spell that phrase?, oh ya, Class Action Law Suit on behalf of the handfull of owners who have posted as having the same issue.

If this was even remotely likely, GM would have been out of business a long time ago as they've put out so many cars with big design flaws. I hate to have to spell it out to you but you're being a stubborn whiner. There is no real issue until the engine breaks down or at least driveability is compromised. As it is, it's as if you were complaining "my engine is too loud and I want my money back" or something.

Real class action lawsuit material is stuff like the ford pickups which have steering failure after only a few years due to parts which are too rust-prone or too thin. Or those tires (firestone I think?) that had thread separation problems.

  I think we are heading towards....Class Action Law Suit on behalf of the handfull of owners who have posted as having the same issue.

LOL!

 

I hate to have to spell it out to you but you're being a stubborn whiner. There is no real issue until the engine breaks down or at least driveability is compromised. As it is, it's as if you were complaining "my engine is too loud and I want my money back" or something.

Real class action lawsuit material is stuff like ...those tires (firestone I think?) that had thread separation problems.

Right now there are 4 threads on three internet sites ,including this one, offering for audition this same sound recording.

The majority opinion so far is that no one would buy my second hand car given the noise that it makes. That translates into many thousands of dollars in damages to me, and others.

And based on the strong consumer protection laws that exist where I live, my case has all the merits of a Class Action Suit.

There is currently a class action suit filed here in Canada claiming price fixing by Toyota under the local Access Toyota program. Toyota has tried unsuccessfully on three occasions to have this case thrown out of court. Each time, the judges have refused Toyota's request.

Nothing would give me more pleasure than to have you convince all the sceptical posters out there that they should buy my car without question. I did not buy a Toyota to lose money nor to profit from anyone's technical oversite.

The purpose of this poll is to gather genuinely felt opionions.

I value your minority opinion as it gives this poll greater credibility

Perhaps you will buy my car in 5 years from now for 28% of what I paid for it?

That is the same percentage that I got when I sold my 1994 Toyota Corolla wagon after 8 years. Both cars have very similar purchase prices once adjusted for inflation.

There is a real issue here that need not wait until the car become undrivable. The problem is that is un-resellable.

[...]

There is currently a class action suit filed here in Canada claiming price fixing by Toyota under the local Access Toyota program. Toyota has tried unsuccessfully on three occasions to have this case thrown out of court. Each time, the judges have refused Toyota's request.

Also, because the judges refuse to throw a case out does not mean it's an instant winner. I don't see how the Access program is price fixing. It's not like you can't hop over to honda to get another price. No one complains about price fixing because future shop sells product X at price Y in all its stores (just an example like that).

There is a real issue here that need not wait until the car become undrivable. The problem is that is un-resellable.

There is currently a class action suit filed here in Canada claiming price fixing by Toyota under the local Access Toyota program. Toyota has tried unsuccessfully on three occasions to have this case thrown out of court. Each time,  the judges have refused Toyota's request.

I don't believe for one minute that it's un-resellable. I also don't believe that "diminished resale value because of *perceived* problem" is a strong case. But hey, you're free to sue if you like it. The lawyers sure will. Good luck!

Also, because the judges refuse to throw a case out does not mean it's an instant winner. I don't see how the Access program is price fixing. It's not like you can't hop over to Honda to get another price. No one complains about price fixing because future shop sells product X at price Y in all its stores (just an example like that).

I was surprised to learn after reading a newspaper article that for every house there is a buyer, only one must accept the fact that the final price will take into account all the facts about the house and all the market forces.

You are right when you reject my claim that my car is un-resellable. It can always be sold for parts.

My point is that my car cannot be resold for the same price after disclosure.

I read in one of your previous postings that you have the same problem as me and that you wrote "As for resale value, just sell it in the summer ".

Essentially you are advocating that I transfer this problem to some unsuspecting customer so that I don't personally lose on the resale value.

I'm sorry that I cannot comply with your suggestion because unlike you, I truly believe that they would suffer and I do not want to be a party to that.

Even the salesman who sold me my car said after hearing the sound recording that it doesn't sound right. I am currently analysing his counter-proposal.

I note that you do not appear to have taken any steps so far to address what I and others perceive as an issue.

So that you, nor anyone that you may sell your car to eventually, should not suffer unjustifiably, do you want to be compensated by any arrangement with Toyota that I am able to negotiate?

P.S.

As for the pending class action regarding the Access Toyota program, the issue there does not seem to be related to whether or not you can negotiate better at a Honda dealership compared to Toyota, rather the claim that some Toyota dealers in Ontario were able to abstain from the program and provide customers with purchase prices that were statistically lower from those charged by dealers participating under the program. Of course this claim will have to be proved and I have no personal opinion on the merits of this case.

You're right that I haven't taken any steps to address the issue because to me there is no issue. I'll call it an issue when the car no longer takes me from point A to B in an acceptable way.

If everybody thought like you, then my life would be so much easier.

Unfortunately, many people are like me.

Like Caesar's wife, our cars must be not only virtuous but above suspicion.

Like Caesar's wife, our cars must be not only virtuous but above suspicion.

I wish you good luck to get something from toyota. Just don't forget that in the end the costs will come back to customers.

Just don't forget that in the end the costs will come back to customers.

If my problem is much more prevelant than anyone imagines, then Toyota is bound to fix it sooner or later.

In either case, it should be a win win situation.

All the cans of soda pop that show up in the supermarket are always perfect.

The public has no idea how many cans get crushed during the manufacturing process and how much that waste impacts the final price.

friend's  03 Vibe 5 speed has the surging fast idle problem exactly as you describe since day 1.

What is the percentage of 03's affected?  All manuals or automatics also?

Corollas, or just Matrixes and Vibes?

For some strange reason, Vibe users were reporting the least amount of incidence compared to Matrix and Corolla. One reason may be that the Canadian version of the Vibe has a different ECU tuned to a colder climate according to my local Vibe service department, whereas the Toyota ECU seems to be universal for all of North America. Fewer Canadian Vibe owners complaining changes the statistics.

My feeling is that this problem is occuring in one car per 500 to one car in ten thousand.

This is very frustrating because when this type of problem is so rare, it becomes difficult for a manufacturer to justify the high cost of debugging a complicated sensor/sotware problem.

And I also feel it is occuring in more manuals than automatics. The reason may be that the cold automatic when in park or neutral imposes more drag on the motor than a cold manual in neutral. Having this slightly extra drag lowers the top idle rpm enough so that it is out of the critical zone where the ECU begins to object by instigating the fuel cuts.

I spent some time in the last 2 days asking some experts to comment and one point emerging is the theory that there is a slight air leak in the intake manifold, not enough to trigger a code fault.

What I learned for the first time is that you can't increase idle rpms by varying the injection quantity, only by adding more air.

Is the air being added by accident via a small leak or explicitly by the idle air valve at the request of the ECU? That remains a mystery.

As well, is the sudden drop in rpms due to the injection being temporarily cut or due to the ECU ordering the idle air valve to suddenly close?

So far no one has any concrete proof as to what is going on.

Does you friend's Vibe sound just like my sound recording?

Same number of pulses (15-30) over the same length of time (40 seconds), and always in the second minute after starting with the car having first sat at least 6 hours in the cold?

How does he feel about his resale value?

friend's  03 Vibe 5 speed has the surging fast idle problem exactly as you describe since day 1.

What is the percentage of 03's affected?  All manuals or automatics also?

Corollas, or just Matrixes and Vibes?

1- Does you friend's Vibe sound just like my sound recording?

2- Same number of pulses (15-30) over the same length of time (40 seconds), and always in the second minute after starting with the car having first sat at least 6 hours in the cold?

3- How does he feel about his resale value?

2- I would say so. Does it till the car is driven a few blocks and for a length of time that is around 1 minute. And with a cold engine, like in the morning after the car has sat overnight, for example. But his wife mostly drives the car, so he didn't have exact details but it sounds so similar.

3- Hey, he's an old budy, I didn't want to rub it in the wound and ask him how he feels about the whole issue and the potential for lower resale when trade-in time comes.

BTW, that particular was bought in late december 02, near Montreal.

I have 2 co-workers who drive 03 Corollas. 1 Manual and 1 auto. Will ask them next week and come back.

That possible air leak in the intake manifold sounds promising. Solutions to complex problems often lies in simple and overlooked details.

3- Hey, he's an old budy, I didn't want to rub it in the wound and ask him how he feels about the whole issue and the potential for lower resale when trade-in time comes.

That possible air leak in the intake manifold sounds promising. Solutions to complex problems often lies in simple and overlooked details.

It was very easy for me to feel good about my new car purchase when my dealer told me that starting with the 03 models, the motors were a new generation and that many of these new engines would have this sound.

It was only after two winters that I began to sense that my dearler's story was not correct and then I began to get nervous because I realized that I would no longer have a reasonable story to pass on to the person buying my car second hand.

I keep thinking about the air leak. At the same time I thought about the possibility of the MAF sensor reporting that less air was flowing.

However, if there are no real air leaks and a MAF sensor does not tell the truth, as long as the oxygen sensor is working perfectly, then the ECU will eventually discover the lie and make a compensation for this lie so that in the end the car works perfectly.

I had my problem when my car was new with a new oxygen sensor and still had my problem after my oxygen sensor was unnecessarily changed by my dealer last month.

So I know that my problem has been occurring in the presence of a good oxygen sensor, therefore by my reasoning, we are not talking about a false air leak, but a real air leak.

Let me start by defining what I call the danger zone for a motor. That is the minimum rpm at which the ECU will temporarily shutdown the engine given a certain temperature and a certain volume of gas being injected.

So I ask, if there is a real air leak, why does the idle pulsing only occur in winter and not year round?

Answer, in summer, the engine block is warmer and the ECU does not need the idle rpm to be as fast as in winter, so the ECU orders the idle air bypass valve to close more. Having a lower rpm means that we are further away from the danger zone where the ECU objects by pulsing.

So if the ECU can set a lower idle rpm in summer, why does it not do so in winter so that we do not get close to the danger zone?

Answer, in winter the engine block and the outside air are colder, it takes more force to turn over a cold engine, and there is also a need to keep the warmup period as short as possible. To achieve all of this we need to burn more gas and we can't burn more gas without admitting more air (including the air from the leak) into the cylinders. While the ECU has the capacity to lower the rpms by closing the idle air valve, it appears that the ECU has decided that it wants to let the engine turnover as fast as possible after having positioned the idle air valve at the position that the ECU has calculated to be proper.

As a consequence we now have a idle rpm of 2300 and given the air temperature and the volume of gas now being injected, the ECU has decided that we are now in the danger zone and it no longer thinks 2300 rpms is good.

If there is an air leak so small that we don't get a code fault, will plugging it cause our cold idle rpms to drop just enough to be out of the danger zone?

How do we go about locating a very minor air leak?

Just to be the devil's advocate, this problem could just as easily be explained by a fuel leak instead of an air leak. My dealer's mechanic first suspected this. If fuel is leaking slightly through one of the four injectors, then the ECU will learn about this in a few days and modify the fuel trim parameter tables to compensate.

But suppose the ECU decided that even with a modification to the data, there is always some residual fuel being injected (and being detected by the O2 sensor)that can't be compensated for with a trim adjustment. The ECU will have no choice but to open up a little bit more the idle air bypass valve to get the a/f ration correct during a cold startup rather than over pollute.

So when it come time to do a cold startup, we may end up having more fuel and air going into the cylinders than on the average car and that spells higher cold idle rpms. If the rpms build up enough, we may hit the danger zone again.

How do we go about locating a very minor fuel leak in the injector(s)?

Every gasket and every rubber hose associated with the intake air manifold has the potential of creating a microscopic air leak. Anyone of the 4 injectors has the potential of having a fuel leak. The leak is so small that the ECU can't bring itself to throw a code so we know which type of leak it is.

For this reason I can understand why Toyota would rather wash its hands of my problem than pull the engine apart while under guaranty.

Thus the problem become a legal one again and this survey's results become very important.

Maybe the fact that some cars do it and others don't is just a matter of statistical variance... meaning all cars theoretically have the issue but only a few idle fast enough that it actually happens.

If there is enough statistical variance to predict that a few cars could idle as fast as 2300 rpm and be in the danger zone as defined in my previous post, then your claim would be correct. I think you are trying to demonstrate that you could have this noise yet not have anything particulary wrong with any engine part. All it would take is to have one engine that has all its mechanical parts move more smoothly and bingo, the same amount of fuel and air yields a higher rpm.

However,if this were the case (an unusually healthy engine that turns over more easily when cold) then we would see these higher rpms occurring all the time in some cars and not commencing only 2 days after reseting the ECU memory.

The ECU has learned about something it doesn't like about my car and it is reacting in a way that has the side effect of too high rpms and this unusual sound.

The debate is about how the public uses it's intuition and concludes that something 'may' be wrong with the car and decides not to buy it second hand.

After rereading my previous post which I just modified a minute ago, I believe this is one time when I think the public has shown good judgement in their responses to my poll.