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By montreal, March 29, 2005

Does your engine sound exactly like this when cold(read post first)?  

  1. 1. Does your engine sound exactly like this when cold(read post first)?

    • Yes, mine sounds exactly like the recording
      0
    • No
      0
    • Yes, but it sounds different
      0

See every reply in these pages:



First the answers to your questions:

1. I would find this problem to be extremely objectionable, totally unacceptable in any vehicle I would own or consider purchasing, new or used.

2. I would not purchase a vehicle with this sound, at any price, for any reason. There is obviously something wrong.

My 2003 Corolla LE (automatic trans.) does not exhibit this behavior when idling after being started in cold weather. The idle starts out a bit fast, as one would normally expect, but eventually settles down to normal. There is no surging as in the recording.

BTW it would be helpful to know the exact year and model of Corolla, and it's present mileage and a brief synopsis of it's maintenance history. HINT: All of this information should have been included in the first post.

I agree that this is not the stuff of a class action lawsuit. However, it sounds like something which can be fixed; it's just a case of finding someone with the technical know-how to diagnose the problem correctly and repair it. Good luck!

There is a great chance that this issue is simply cosmetic and will never compromise the reliability or driveability of your vehicle. If that is the case, Toyota won't do anything to help you. No car manufacturer produces cars that are perfect 100% of the time, not even Toyota.

Well said, but as you can tell by reading the adjacent posts, the general public, upon hearing this sound is turned off enough that they will pass on the purchase of such a second hand car, even with a written guaranty from the manufacturer that the engine will not be harmed due to the noise alone.

And that is where owners of such rare cars as mine will feel the pinch - when we cannot put our cars up for private sales without loss. Should we be forced to trade our cars in to the Toyota dealers because the dealers are the only ones who believe that the sound does not affect reliability, then we will not get as high a trade in value as a private sale. So we lose either way for this cosmetic? issue. That is why I have taken this noise seriously. Because it sounds so unnatural to anyone who has ever owned a car.

I think Toyota and Pontiac would be too embarrassed to send out bulletins to every mechanic on the continent saying in effect that 3% of their cars make this noise and that these cars should not receive a bad evaluation, nor be discounted in value.

..... you couldn't pay me to take it

but thats just me

You and about 95% of respondents say exactly the same thing - they wouldn't touch it.

BTW it would be helpful to know the exact year and model of Corolla, and it's present mileage and a brief synopsis of it's maintenance history. HINT: All of this information should have been included in the first post.

 

This noise is happening to owners of Matrix, Corolla, Vibe for model years 2003 and newer (manual transmission only). Even Echo. It started as soon as I got the car home when brand new in February 2002. I only get the noise on the first startup of the day, so I could not easily demonstrate it to the dealer. Initially the dealer believed from my description (not a recorded sound) that this noise was reasonable for the new generation of engines. He assumed incorrectly from my description that I was dealing with a elevated idle rpm (true as well) and not a pulsing problem which was very difficult to describe (listen to the recording and then try finding the words that effectively communicate that reality). I too believed that the noise might be a characteristic of the new generation of these engines, but as time went on and I began to discuss this with other owners who had bought like cars, I realized that I was one of a very small minority and that I would have difficulty reselling my car in a market where most cars don't make this noise.

However, it sounds like something which can be fixed; it's just a case of finding someone with the technical know-how to diagnose the problem correctly and repair it. Good luck!

Some of the best mechanics on the continent have tried different solutions and none have succeeded to date. I believe there is a weakness in the engine computer software. Changing the software can open a Pandora's box of problems should a new bug be introduced in an attempt to correct an existing one. Toyota has written me saying that they hope to solve this problem some day. Stay tuned.

My question still isn't answered. What is the year and model identifier of YOUR Toyota automobile which has this problem? What is the mileage? What is it's maintenance history? You have yet to provide the specific answers, just the answer that 2003 and later models using the same engine are affected. I don't care about that, I want to know about YOUR OWN INDIVIDUAL CAR.

I'm starting to think that the inability to effectively answer simple questions and provide important information in an up-front manner may be part of the problem -- you are not getting full assistance from dealers and mechanic due to a lack of personal communications skills.

My question still isn't answered. What is the year and model identifier of YOUR Toyota automobile which has this problem? What is the mileage? What is it's maintenance history? You have yet to provide the specific answers, just the answer that 2003 and later models using the same engine are affected. I don't care about that, I want to know about YOUR OWN INDIVIDUAL CAR.

Larry,

I have a 2003 Matrix base model with the B package (AC,power locks,etc)

It has 60018 kilometers (37500 miles) as of today.

All routine maintenance has been performed by the dealer according to the schedule.

This noise started in the first week following my taking delivery of this vehicle in late February 2002. It was one of the first 1000 off the assembly line in Cambridge, Ontario. I believe the engine is manufactured in the south-eastern United States.

I hope this info helps you understand my situation.

I'm starting to think that the inability to effectively answer simple questions and provide important information in an up-front manner may be part of the problem -- you are not getting full assistance from dealers and mechanic due to a lack of personal communications skills.

There is nothing wrong with my communication skills. I just retired from programming robots for the last 26 years.

I know a software bug in a real-time system when I see one and I now know how a dealer and the next layer of technical support will try to stonewall a customer once they realize that no amount of mechanic's time is going to resolve a software error. That is why the dealer and his higher ups threw in the towel once they had spent over $400 of warranty time on a dead-end chase.

It will take a systems engineer (in Japan) to solve this one.

I just want to know how prevalent this problem is so that I can defend myself in court if a solution is not ready by 2010, the year I would normally be re-selling my 8 year old car through a private sale.

My question still isn't answered. What is the year and model identifier of YOUR Toyota automobile which has this problem? What is the mileage? What is it's maintenance history? You have yet to provide the specific answers, just the answer that 2003 and later models using the same engine are affected. I don't care about that, I want to know about YOUR OWN INDIVIDUAL CAR.

Larry,

I provided you 6 weeks ago with all the information you requested from me in the previous post.

Perhaps you have needed all this time to digest it.

I look forward to your comments.

Montreal.

in regards to the air leak, you could tell by reading the electrical signals to the IAC and injectors to determine if its cutting fuel or if the IAC is flipping open and closed. in the mean time have you tried replacing any gaskets like the valve cover gasket or any of the vac hoses and the pcv valve?

Bikeman982

No, my engine sounds like this:

http://www.frenzy.com/~jester/racecar.html

Totally hilarious!!

Now that both the cold weather and my idle hunting are back, I am bumping the thread.

I have heard of this problem occuring on an ECHO as well.

The MP3 recording referred to in the first post of this thread is again available for auditioning. The recording is now hosted on the GENVIBE forum and requires a link to the post and click on the attachment.

Let me tell you a little story about nasty engine sounds. When Ford came out with the 2.5L 24V V6 (Duratec) for the Contour, complaints started pouring in. Some, but not all customers complained that the engine sounded like you had dumped a bucket of scrap metal into the engine. It made the most horrifying metallic grinding noise you can imagine. People demanded that their engines be replaced or that their cars be bought back. It didn't happen, and you know why? Ford knew that somewhere near 10% of those engines would make that sound. They didn't know why some did and others didn't, or how to fix the ones that did. What they did know is that they had run those engines that made the sound on the same durability tests as the quiet engines and found no difference in engine performance or wear at 500,00 miles. There is a great chance that this issuse is simply cosmetic and will never compromise the reliability or driveability of your vehicle. If that is the case, Toyota won't do anything to help you. No car manufacturer produces cars that are perfect 100% of the time, not even Toyota.

People still buy diesel cars and trucks, even though they make quite a bit of noise! I would not even consider a diesel, just because of it. If a car I was looking to buy sounded like it could not idle, I would not purchase it. I would move on to another. Such is the consumer option.

 

 

in regards to the air leak, you could tell by reading the electrical signals to the IAC and injectors to determine if its cutting fuel or if the IAC is flipping open and closed. in the mean time have you tried replacing any gaskets like the valve cover gasket or any of the vac hoses and the pcv valve?

 

If there is an air leak which is causing the computer to order the IAC valve to flip open and closed, then this same air leak has been present since the day I bought this car brand new.

But if I reset the computer by pulling the fuse, then in spite of this air leak, the computer does not pulse the IAC valve nor the fuel injectors. What happens after a computer reset is that during the following two days, the peak cold idle rpms will slowly increase from 1800 to 2300, with a gain of about 200 rpms for each time the car is restarted. Only after starting twice with 2300 rpms will the pulsing experience be introduced for the first time.

Yes, a minor un-metered air leak would probably cause the computer to alter the long-term fuel trim parameters and this could explain a progressive increase in the peak idle rpms following each cold start.

Because I may be required to seek compensation from the manufacturer when I resell my car, I am reluctant to tinker with it, least I be accused of creating this problem.

If my problem is shared by over 8% of other owners of the same engine, then I believe that the manufacturer should have the first crack at bat in dealing with this problem.

My main interest at this time is documenting how many other owners share this issue (poll question), and catalog the different appoaches that have been applied by dealerships for cars still under warranty.

So far there is not one documented solution across the continent among Corolla, Matrix, Vibe, and Echo owners. This is why I prefer using my computer keyboard instead of my ratchet set.

........... There is a great chance that this issue is simply cosmetic and will never compromise the reliability or driveability of your vehicle. If that is the case, Toyota won't do anything to help you. No car manufacturer produces cars that are perfect 100% of the time, not even Toyota.

People still buy diesel cars and trucks, even though they make quite a bit of noise! I would not even consider a diesel, just because of it. If a car I was looking to buy sounded like it could not idle, I would not purchase it. I would move on to another. Such is the consumer option.

 

Whether this problem is cosmetic or not, the moment that a second hand car buyer realizes that they are buying one of the 8% of cars that make this sound as opposed to the 92% that don't make this sound, then they will get cold feet or ask for a reduction in price.

Why should the 8% of owners of cars that make this sound have to suffer a loss of resale value?

I would not have a problem buying a noisy diesel car as long as 100% of the same model made the same noise. I would be scared off if my diesel sounded different and certainly a diesel making a pulsing sound while idling would do it.

in regards to the air leak, you could tell by reading the electrical signals to the IAC and injectors to determine if its cutting fuel or if the IAC is flipping open and closed. in the mean time have you tried replacing any gaskets like the valve cover gasket or any of the vac hoses and the pcv valve?

 

If there is an air leak which is causing the computer to order the IAC valve to flip open and closed, then this same air leak has been present since the day I bought this car brand new.

But if I reset the computer by pulling the fuse, then in spite of this air leak, the computer does not pulse the IAC valve nor the fuel injectors. What happens after a computer reset is that during the following two days, the peak cold idle rpms will slowly increase from 1800 to 2300, with a gain of about 200 rpms for each time the car is restarted. Only after starting twice with 2300 rpms will the pulsing experience be introduced for the first time.

Yes, a minor un-metered air leak would probably cause the computer to alter the long-term fuel trim parameters and this could explain a progressive increase in the peak idle rpms following each cold start.

Because I may be required to seek compensation from the manufacturer when I resell my car, I am reluctant to tinker with it, least I be accused of creating this problem.

If my problem is shared by over 8% of other owners of the same engine, then I believe that the manufacturer should have the first crack at bat in dealing with this problem.

My main interest at this time is documenting how many other owners share this issue (poll question), and catalog the different appoaches that have been applied by dealerships for cars still under warranty.

So far there is not one documented solution across the continent among Corolla, Matrix, Vibe, and Echo owners. This is why I prefer using my computer keyboard instead of my ratchet set.

you know, it could be something as simple as a bad pcv valve and you're fussing about this soo long, you could have had it fixed and the car sold for a decent resale by now. toyota may never do anything about this no matter how mean you get with them. usually persuing the dealer to fix something that they didnt fix is a good course of action, but if it means you're leaving your car in a "broken" state for a long time and pouring hours upon hours of your personal time to get it fixed....it may just NOT BE WORTH IT. just bite the bullet on this one and fix it. start by properly diagnosing the problem to eliminate faulty parts.

 

start by back probing an injector with a noid light to see if the engine is cutting fuel. if its not then the upper end of the cold start rev range is being controlled by the IAC. next tap the wires or backprobe the IAC connector and read its electrial values while its doing its crazy warmup idle. i'll bet its flapping opened and closed

just because you pull the fuse and it goes away DOES NOT mean its an ECM problem! too many people do this and immediatly blame the computer. ALOT of cars have an adaptive idle which relearns how to idle properly after the ecm is reset, the learning period varies from manufactuer to manufactuer. it sounds like when you reset it, you're resetting its learned idle and those 2 days of happiness are because its relearning its idle. you didnt fix anything, the mechanical fault or faulty sensor is still there.

yes, it could be a single faulty sensor! this surging idle is a common problem with fords of the 90's. its caused by a bad mass airflow sensor, on cold startup the engine surges up and down and sometimes will stall, however once its warm it idles fine and drives without any problems.

while its hunting up and down for idle speed spray carb cleaner around the vacum lines, any change in idle means that you've found a leak and found the problem. this is something that you can do yourself and is a KNOWN diagnostic procedure.

Just bite the bullet on this one and fix it. start by properly diagnosing the problem to eliminate faulty parts.

start by back probing an injector with a noid light to see if the engine is cutting fuel. if its not then the upper end of the cold start rev range is being controlled by the IAC. next tap the wires or backprobe the IAC connector and read its electrial values while its doing its crazy warmup idle. i'll bet its flapping opened and closed

We saw on the scope the output signal from the ECM to the IAC and it was "flapping opened and closed" as you suggest, but that did not help the Toyota engineering team to conclude anything about the cause.

just because you pull the fuse and it goes away DOES NOT mean its an ECM problem! too many people do this and immediatly blame the computer. ALOT of cars have an adaptive idle which relearns how to idle properly after the ecm is reset, the learning period varies from manufactuer to manufactuer. it sounds like when you reset it, you're resetting its learned idle and those 2 days of happiness are because its relearning its idle. you didnt fix anything, the mechanical fault or faulty sensor is still there.

I agree that there is nothing different about the ECM software in my car versus the software in the car that has no idle pulsing. What is different is exactly what you suggest, a mechanical problem or faulty sensor. What is wrong with the software is that it does not know how to deal with a mechanical or sensor fault that is not bad enough for a code to be thrown, but just bad enough to create a situation that the software cannot stabilize.

yes, it could be a single faulty sensor! this surging idle is a common problem with fords of the 90's. its caused by a bad mass airflow sensor, on cold startup the engine surges up and down and sometimes will stall, however once its warm it idles fine and drives without any problems.

It could be caused by anyone of many things. Obviously whenever one of these things is bad enough, an associated code gets generated. Because I never get a code, I have concluded that whatever is wrong, is wrong in a very minor way. If I pull out each electrical sensor and make a measurement with my digital multi-meter, my fear is that I won't be able to identify a bad sensor if it is just within tolerence. There may be many sensors just within tolerence, but when they work as a team, they produce the worst kind of result.

while its hunting up and down for idle speed spray carb cleaner around the vacum lines, any change in idle means that you've found a leak and found the problem. this is something that you can do yourself and is a KNOWN diagnostic procedure.

 

That's probably about the only thing I can attempt to trace a minor leak. Some people have suggested spraying propane instead. Either way, I would have to do it in a closed in space to avoid any wind or air currents, so the idea of using a combustable gas in the vicinity of the electrical alternator which has carbon brushes and slip rings is not that appealing to me.

The bottom line is that you would like me to personally solve a problem whose solution has eluded many professional mechanics all across the continent. It is because the solution has been so elusive that I am reluctant to re-muster the patience that is required in troubleshooting this problem. In my 26 year career as a robot programmer I have had to deal with millions of lines of software code and thousands of electrical sensors. If I have been shying away from tackling this idle hunting problem, it is because my instincts are telling me that there is no easy silver bullet solution waiting to be found.

For me to come up with a solution, I would have to install my own layer of software inside my car's computer to tell me what's really going on. Being obliged to approach this problem in any other way just leaves me cold.

Thanks for taking the time to provide a lengthy list of sugestions.

Bikeman982

Fortunately the symptons that you describe are not prevalent and are of the minority variety. Call it a design defect and either accept it for it's annoyance or press on with your resolutions.

about the propane or the carb spray.

look it is dangerous,but so is simply putting fuel into the car. your alternator is not a spark spitting demon, and it wont turn into a blowtorch jet engine of you get some fumes near it.

Bikeman982

about the propane or the carb spray.

look it is dangerous,but so is simply putting fuel into the car. your alternator is not a spark spitting demon, and it wont turn into a blowtorch jet engine of you get some fumes near it.

I think as long as you don't spray anything directly on any electrical component (such as the alternator) that you won't have any problem with explosion. The worst place might be near the wires because if there is a short, it will definitely let you know should you spray a combustable material on it. I think it would be fine for hoses to check to see if leaks are present and if it makes a difference.

 

 

I think as long as you don't spray anything directly on any electrical component (such as the alternator) that you won't have any problem with explosion. The worst place might be near the wires because if there is a short, it will definitely let you know should you spray a combustable material on it. I think it would be fine for hoses to check to see if leaks are present and if it makes a difference.

I'll consider trying the propane as soon as the weather gets a bit warmer.

Thanks again for your suggestion.

Bikeman982

I think as long as you don't spray anything directly on any electrical component (such as the alternator) that you won't have any problem with explosion. The worst place might be near the wires because if there is a short, it will definitely let you know should you spray a combustable material on it. I think it would be fine for hoses to check to see if leaks are present and if it makes a difference.

I'll consider trying the propane as soon as the weather gets a bit warmer.

Thanks again for your suggestion.

Some people are recommending a carb cleaner to be sprayed, which may be safer than actual propane.

 

 

the carb cleaner is much more dramatic of a difference and much easier to pinpoint where its been.

Bikeman982

the carb cleaner is much more dramatic of a difference and much easier to pinpoint where its been.
Is it also less combustable than propane?

 

 

the carb cleaner is much more dramatic of a difference and much easier to pinpoint where its been.

Is it also less combustable than propane?

 

fumes are fumes and both are dangerous. i cant say which is more dangerous, just that you'll get a more accurate result with a the spray and its straw.

 

 

Here we go again For what it's worth, mine did this for 2 winters but hasn't done it yet this winter. Perhaps the air filter is getting dirty and reducing idle speed default_tongue

Perhaps the air filter is getting dirty and reducing idle speed default_tongue

 

Anything that can put just enough drag on the idling engine so that the peak cold idle rpms don't go above 2200 seems to make the symptoms (pulsing) go away, even if the underlying problem hasn't been corrected.

If I place my transmission in gear and slightly release the clutch to create a light drag on the motor which would otherwise be spinning at 2300 with no load, then the pulsing stops. This leads me to believe that the computer gets upset at 2300.

The torque converters of automatic transmissions (in PARK or NEUTRAL) when cold will also create more drag than a manual transmission in neutral (or clutch in). This is why there are much fewer reports of pulsing from owners of cars with automatic transmissions.

Your dirty air filter is certainly going to reduce the amount of air that can be drawn through it when the motor is fed with a fixed amount of fuel pre-determined by the computer.

I could try masking out part of my air filter to see if my rpms would drop and the pulsing goes away.

Ultimately, the O2 sensor will detect the overrich condition and adjust the fuel trim parameters accordingly.

If this works, it would mean that my masked over air filter is compensating for our suspected air leak that is occurring downstream from the air filter.

Bikeman982

My suggestion to you is this...stop being nice.  .... Give 'em Hell.  Regards, Aaron

There is nothing nice about what I am doing.

 

I feel very sorry for a large successful corporation that has allowed this problem to come this far due to the complete indifference of a handful of customer service and technical specialists who couldn't evaluate properly the situation that they have found themselves in.

They had plenty of warning from me and a lot of constructive criticism. They chose to ignore it all.

Now they are paying dearly for their arrogance.

We have faced different situations, each requiring different responses.

Thanks for sharing a difficult experience in your life.

Do I detect traces of resentment and frustration? Hang in there, we support you. We are the world!

 

 

Do I detect traces of resentment and frustration? Hang in there, we support you. We are the world!

I felt alot of resentment 12 months ago mainly because my dealership botched the second test and tried to suggest that the problem had gone away.

In the past 12 months I have been very encouraged by the many owners who have testified in these 5 different polls how they too have this same issue.

Thanks for your encouragement.

Guest amember

I have a Corolla CE, manual transmission, from 2003, that does what is described in this thread. My answers to the questions posted by "montreal" are:

1. I find the sound objectionable.

2. I would not be interested in buying a car that makes this sound.

I bought the car used, last December and when I checked it out (yes, I started it when the engine was cold) the engine did not exhibit this behaviour. After reading this thread I think it's possible that the computer has been reset (willingly or not) at the dealership.

I took the car this week to the dealer's service center and they acknowledged (verbally) that the behaviour at startup is not normal, but they couldn't find its cause.

"montreal", thanks for the effort you put into this thread (and the cause). If nothing else, it may save other un-lucky owners to pay for repairs that might not fix the problem.

Best regards and good luck..



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