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Front End Thumping At Speed

by sail114, September 22, 2010



Hi all,

It's been a while since I've been on here, but the 2006 'rolla is starting to make some noise. About two months ago I started to notice a thump, thump, thump coming from my driver's side front end between 30 and 65mph, with the peak sound around 50 or so. Rotated tires (Michelin Hydroedge), balanced them, checked rotation again... thumping was still there each time. Now its getting worse and I'm getting a little thump felt in the steering wheel as well. I DO need new brakes, as these are the originals at 93,000 mi and the pads have only about 1/8 inch of meat left. I have Brembo rotors and Hawk HPS pads (fish, these were based on your experience with them) sitting in my dining room, ready to go- just need to find the time to do them. The noise doesn't seem like brakes, since it is consistent whether I'm braking or accelerating. It also doesn't sound like a bearing, as there isn't the telltale grinding sound. I'm thinking at this point that maybe its the inside CV joint on the driver's side axle, as I also get a metallic clack from that area when shifting to reverse when the tranny is cold.

Any input from the 'pros' on here? I'd like to get this straightened out before winter, but also don't want to start pulling apart the front end until I'm certain I need to (brakes are cake, but I'd rather not be doing axle jobs at this point!)

Ideas?

Thanks,

~Chris

  • 149 posts

How many miles on the tires? Were they rotated often?

Tires were put on at 10k, taken off every winter, and rotated religiously every 5-8k. That being said, they probably have about 50k out of the 93k that the car has on it.

I don't think its the tires, but who knows... I'm thinking wheel bearing or CV joint, but I'd like some input. The thumping feels like a light grinding at lower speeds, and turns into a higher speed "whomp, whomp, whomp" as I accelerate.

~Chris

If you rotated the tires and that same corner is making noise, then it is unlikely to be a tire issue. Could try throwing the spare tire on there to be sure, but it doesn't sound like it needs to come to that. A bent wheel or bad tire (internal damage) should have been picked up on when they were put on the balance machine.

What tire pressures are you running currently? You mentioned that they were put on 10K, where they in storage before that? How were they stored, sitting one on top of each other (horizontally), or stacked side by side (vertically)?

If the noise seems to be keyed to road speed instead of engine speed, I'd suspect wheel bearing, CV joint, tie-rod, steering rack, or lower ball-joint. Also suspect the front suspension as well - a bad strut can cause wheel to move excessively. Wheel bearings generally make a grinding noise, but they can manifest as a thumping noise. Worn CV joints, bad tie-rod ends, and worn lower ball-joints and steering rack can also make a thumping noise. A quick visual inspection will catch most issues down there (ripped boots, leaking grease, leaky strut, etc.). If nothing seems amiss - you can pry on the wheel (jack that corner of the car up) and try and rock the wheel in/out at the 12 and 6 o'clock positions, list up on the tire as well - should be no slop at all.

Good choice on the pads and rotors. Note that it will take a little time to get used to the higher initial bite of the Hawk pad. But once you get used to it, you'll wonder how you were able to brake effectively with the OEM setup. The Hawk pads also have integrated shims, but see if there is enough room to still use the OEM shims (probably not, as the new rotor + new pads might be too tight with the OEM shims). I'd recommend using some pad-quieting material to help with initial squeaking. Some are liquid "goop" material, some are a peel and stick variety. Otherwise, you might get some initial screeching until the brakes wipe the surface corrosion off the rotors. The key here is to bed in the pads correctly along with "seasoning" the rotors. Bedding in the pads per Hawk's procedure:

1. After installing new brake pads, make 6 to 10 stops from approximately 30-35 mph applying moderate pressure.

2. Make an additional 2 to 3 hard stops from approximately 40 to 45 mph.

3. DO NOT DRAG BRAKES!

4. Allow 15 minutes for brake system to cool down.

5. After step 4 your new pads are ready for use.

The rotors will make a "whiring" sound until those machine marks wear down - critical to avoid extreme braking the first several hundreds of miles on the rotors, to let them heat cycle properly. Basically, as long as you don't ride your brakes, you should be fine.

Fish, I was hoping you'd chime in... thanks!

Tires are stored in the winter stacked vertically in my garage to avoid pressure on the treads. I just put on the spare and went for a (short) drive, still feeling and hearing some noise from the front end. When I had it up on the jack, I played around with things a bit. Bearings feel fine in the 12 and 6 pull test, same with lower ball joint and tie rods. Also, I'm not hearing any grinding when I put my ear to the hub while spinning it. That being said, I do feel a small click in the driver side shaft if I rest my hand on it while slowly turning the tire. I'm not sure if this is normal differential 'noise' coming through the axle, or the CV joint clicking a bit and sending that vibration through.

I'm definitely going to wait to do the brake job until I have this figured out. If it IS a bad bearing, the last thing I want to do is screw up a new set of brembo rotors. Question... when you mention 'seasoning the rotors', is that different from bedding the pads to them using the prescribed Hawk method of sequential braking pressure? Last brake job I did was brembo rotors and bendix titanium pads on my old Ford Contour, and those pads were specially designed to bed themselves over the course of 50 miles or so. Also, what's the best way to get a rusted drum off the rear hub? I'd like to check my rear shoes while I have the car up on the jack.

Thanks!

~Chris

Seasoning the rotors can be done while bedding the brake pads - though some ceramic pads are pre-burnished and don't require a bed-in procedure. In any case, new rotors will need those machine marks worn off (usually a few hundred miles of light brake work) and then heat cycled gradually. If the rotors are heated up too quickly or quickly cooled down, you could see surface cracks form on the rotor face. Though it takes quite a bit of heat/rapid cooling to do that much damage - just something to keep in mind. Most cases of premature warping can be attributed to not properly seasoning the rotors. Not seasoning them can also cause that critical brake transfer layer to be uneven in areas - causing the brakes to grab unevenly, makes it feel like a warped rotor.

Simply put - seasoning the rotors will wear down the machining marks and any residual machine oils from the surface of the rotor and establishing a wear pattern between the pad and rotor. The more complex task it will perform to stress relieve the iron material of rotor.

As for corrosion of the rear drums - that is going to be a tough one, especially if the drum is corrosion welded to the flange on the hub (center bore of the drum to hub). First off, try and eliminate as much internal contact with the drum to begin with. Make sure to back off the adjuster (there are inspection holes in the rear of the drum) to pull the shoes off a bit and don't forget to disengage the parking brake. There are two threaded holes that can be used to pry the drum off the rear hubs. I don't remember the threads off the top of my head, but they are identical to the threading on the spare tire hold down screw. Two screws, a ratchet, and a little patience - those drums will come off. Also helps to hit the centerbore with a little PB Blaster or similar (WD-40 doesn't work as well though), sometimes a little heat and hammering will break that corrosion off.

So it seems as though some seasoning needs to be done before I do the Hawk prescribed bedding process? I also read that new rotors should be seasoned using old pads. Does this apply in this case, or am I reading misinformation?

Thanks for the info on the drums. I'll have to grab the PB blaster and give them a shot a few days before I attempt to pull them off. They look pretty well fused to the hub flange, so this could be tricky.

As far as the thumping is concerned: I forgot to mention that when I was under the car last night, i tried to move the shaft front to back. The driver's side axle DID move about 1/16 of an inch when I applied pressure front to back. Now, I know that the shafts are suppose to have some in and out movement to them (which I also felt), but should they be able to move in a lateral direction? Also, is there any chance that my brakes could be causing this issue, seeing as I have such heavily worn pads and rotors on the car right now?

Thanks again,

-Chris

Using older pads would be the ideal case, but not always possible. When you buy a new car - you start off with new pads and rotors too - just gentle driving for a little while can help out.

Trying to bed in the Hawks right away might be a little too soon, as the bedding in process itself will generate a lot of heat, and the brakes will make some weird noises. But if push comes to shove, it can be done, just make sure you let the brakes cool completely (do not speed up the cooling) after the bedding procedure. You can always bed in the pads later - not ideal, but with the machining marks on the rotor, that brake transfer layer will be wiped out anyways. Once the marks are gone, then you can start properly bedding in the pads.

When I did mine, I have a set of Hawk Blues that I use to season the rotors with. OEM organic pads also work pretty well.

As for the axle, they can move in and out (axially), but not laterally. That could be a sign of a bad CV joint or even a bad wheel bearing. I'd also double check that the hubs are tight - might have to take this in to have them do a runout test on the hub. Loose mounts are another possibility, but give the age of the car, that is hard to believe. CV boots still in good shape? No leaking grease, no tears?

So I'll smack on the new rotors, season them with the OEM pads that are on there with a couple gentle braking runs on the highway (ideal that the exit is 1/2 a mile from my house), then come back and put the new pads on, change the fluid, bleed the system, and call it a day.

That's what I thought about the axle movement. It was possible to move it at the inboard end, but the hub-end was tight. I think I'll be calling my mother's mechanic and have her bring the car in this week to check for hub run out and if necessary, either do a bearing or axle job on the car. If i had my father's garage worth of tools I'd do the job myself, but the stuff I have allows me to do brakes and routine maintenance... not the big jobs.

Update: after talking with my mechanic today, they've been able to isolate the noise to around the differential. He said it sounds similar to a bad wheel bearing (which is why it fooled me), just not coming from the hub. They took it out for another test drive this morning after bedding in the new brembo/hawk brakes, and were going to scope it at some point this afternoon. I HOPE to god its not a bad diff or tranny, as that would kill me to do such high-priced repairs at 93k miles! Tranny fluid has been changed by me every 35k, so I highly doubt it has anything to do with that...

Will keep you all updated.

~Chris (keeping fingers crossed!)

I've read somewhere that there could be an excessive amount of pressure built up inside the transaxle (clogged vent tube) that could lead to excessive gear, thumping, or whining noise. Might be something quick to check on. Other than that - might get lucky and it is actually in the axle / CV joint end, instead of the transaxle. $150 axle vs $3000 transaxle - I'd rather take the axle.

Ok, so I got the car back yesterday. First of all, the Hawk pads dont' have nearly as much bite as I was expecting, but then again they aren't fully broken in yet (90 miles of driving), and I came from my mother's Altima 3.5 SR with HUGE rotors and carbon pads.

The bummer is that my mechanic is telling me that the noise I'm hearing is most likely tires, as he can't find the source. I don't buy it, especially since I ran the spare and had the same noise. My money is still on the half-shaft, but I'm hesitant to swap it out until I have further hard evidence. Urgh!!

~Chris

Fish, where is the vent hose for the transaxle? I want to make sure that isn't stopped up at all...

Ok, so I got the car back yesterday. First of all, the Hawk pads dont' have nearly as much bite as I was expecting, but then again they aren't fully broken in yet (90 miles of driving), and I came from my mother's Altima 3.5 SR with HUGE rotors and carbon pads.

 

The bummer is that my mechanic is telling me that the noise I'm hearing is most likely tires, as he can't find the source. I don't buy it, especially since I ran the spare and had the same noise. My money is still on the half-shaft, but I'm hesitant to swap it out until I have further hard evidence. Urgh!!

~Chris

if its a rumbling tire noise, which was in my case, the wheel bearings were failing.

Pretty common problem with the toyotas.

Ok, so I got the car back yesterday. First of all, the Hawk pads dont' have nearly as much bite as I was expecting, but then again they aren't fully broken in yet (90 miles of driving), and I came from my mother's Altima 3.5 SR with HUGE rotors and carbon pads.

 

The bummer is that my mechanic is telling me that the noise I'm hearing is most likely tires, as he can't find the source. I don't buy it, especially since I ran the spare and had the same noise. My money is still on the half-shaft, but I'm hesitant to swap it out until I have further hard evidence. Urgh!!

~Chris

Bummer. If the noise is still there regardless of what tire is on it, my money is on the half-shafts or wheel bearings. Might try jacking up the front end of the car and turn the wheels by hand and listen for the source of the noise.

 

As for the Hawk brakes, they would take a little while before they start to show their performance. Brand new rotors and new pads - until those machine marks are completely gone, the pads won't be able to bite 100%. Just watch for discoloration of the rotors (ie, they start to turn blue). Eventually, they will start to brake even better than the ones on the the Altima (Corolla is lighter, Altima comes OEM with Akebono pads) - especially in fade resistance. Just read up on some of the braking adventures that Car & Driver had with several Nissan/Infinity products.

Fish, where is the vent hose for the transaxle? I want to make sure that isn't stopped up at all...
Vent for the transaxle would be on the top - just look for a tube that connects to the top of the transaxle, should be fairly obvious.

 

 

Just read that article. Wow! I guess I won't be braking the Altima from 100mph any time soon. Those results from the 370Z are just plain scary.

~Chris



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