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tomservo

Putting In New Rings, Tool Questions.

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I'm putting new rings in my 1zz-fe (2001 prizm)... I think I have most everything, but I have a few questions for those knowledgable.. I plan on pulling the head and removing the oil pan, using a ridge reamer and pushing the pistons up thru the top. Putting on new rings, honing the cylinders and installing new rod bearings.

 

What particular sockets will I need for this job? I have a torque wrench, but I'm uncertain if we're talking about 6 point, 8 point or 12 point socket required - which will I need and what specific size? I need to be prepared.. It's averaging 15F here (unbelievably warm for this time of year) and while I have a heater, I don't have a second vehicle to go and get tools and parts as I discover a need for them. I have (most) sockets 6mm-19mm. A lot I have in both 6 and 12 point.

 

What sort of tools do I need to replace the valve seals? is there a special valve removal tool? (like the 3000GT has)

 

Thanks.. I'll be starting monday.. wish me luck!

 

Stuff I have:

 

Gasket kit

Rod bearings

Rings

Oil

Assembly oil

Gasket remover

Antifreeze + distilled water

Ridge reamer

Torque Wrench

Acetone (for cleaning crap)

Jackstands

Basic mechanic's tools (1/4, 3/8 and 1/2 sockets and wrenches)

Drill

Cylinder hone

 

Let me know if I missed anything.. I'll have my bike but it's not fun to try and ride on 2 inches of ice when it's freezing cold and windy..

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pickup enough trans fluid to fill the engine to the full oil mark and drive it around with transfluid for oil for a little bit after it idles to warm. drive it very gently, just up and down your street once or twice. trans fluid has very strong detergents in it and will really clean out any buildups and deposits in the engine. do this before changing the bearings.

 

why are you replacing rings after only 5 years?

 

also i dont think you realize how long it takes to properly hone an Iron sleeved engine. you need to have a cross hatch pattern crossing at about 30 degrees

 

http://www.saturnfans.com/photos/watermark.php?file=15586

 

it should look like the cylinder on the left.

 

for breakin run an oil like kendal gt-1. its cheap and has alot of detergents, its a good break in oil. let the car idle for about 45 minutes to an hour then change oil hot. fill it back up with gt-1 and drive normally (no flooring it no hard driving) then change again at 500 miles. next change at 1k miles, and then you should be ok to resume a normal change interval and driving it pretty much however you want. those first changes however will yeild black nasty looking oil.

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I'm hoping that your will drop the engine/tanny out and work on it outside of the car. You could do it on the car - but it will be brutal, have to constantly jump up and down to get out a component. extra set of hands would help alot - even if it is just for moral support :D. I'll try and bold items that you might need. At least have a copy of the factory service manual (not a haynes manual - unless you have done this before). I did not notice a dial indicator listed - if you open up the engine to replace the rings - might be a good idea to spend the time and measure tolerances while your in there. Be a real shame to find out that the crank bearing are bad or you have too much play in the wrist pins a few hundred miles down the road. Feeler guage set to measure valve clearances would also be a good idea - since the head will have to come off anyway. You don''t have to rebuild the wntire engine - but since your in there - measure away to give yourself at least some piece of mind.

 

Wow - where to start. Oil pan is not fun to get off - they glued it on there from the factory with some sealant. That has to be cut away and you need something to pry on to pop it off (there are pry points around the block). Need Plastigage to check for proper clearances - a must when you replace the bearings on the con rod. You need a piston ring expander to get the compression rings off safely. Be a good idea to have some smaller boxes labeled to keep the assemblies together. Snap ring pliers set. A heated solvent or water bath to heat the pistons up (to pull the wrist pins from pistons - if you plan on doing that). Port and polish kit (not neccessarily need to P&P the haed and block - but these kits come with an abrasive ball that is great at removing carbon deposits from the valves (safer than most wire brush attachement for the drill). Piston groove cleaning tool - or you can break off a piece of an old ring and use that. Piston ring compressor - or you will not be able to get that piston back in the block. Note: Cylinder head uses a weird bolt - double hex, that is I believe, 10mm. Hex and Torx set. Loctite or similar, silicone sealants (Toyota needs a certain type - in the factory service manual). Valve spring compressor (looks like a big C-clamp with some odd fittings - dealer should have this). Valve seal replacement tool (kinda looks like a deep well socket). All kinds of pliers (needle nose, flat, slipjaw, etc.). Air compressor with associated air blowoff bits (blow out debris, cleaning holes, lift up valve seats, etc.) - not critical, but will make it much easier on you. Magnetic pickup (lift valve seals, valve keepers, dropped bolts, nuts, washers, etc.). Couple of cans of general solvent (cheaper than acetone and will coat components with light oil to prevent corrosion). All kinds of brushes for solvent work, there is a special valve guide brush to clean up those bushings. Need a precision flat-edge with the already mentioned feeler gauges to measure flatness over the block, heads, intake and exhaust ports. New valves or micrometer (also can check the lobes on camshafts) and caliper (inside outside types) to measure existing valves and bushings. Machinist's blue dye, carbide valve seat cutter (cleans valve seats), valve lapping compound to cut valves if needed. Steel square to check spring straightness and height. New cylinder head bolts - just in case the old ones are stretched out too far. Case of oil, bunch of filters, etc. - you know the drill. Flushing the engine before you work on it might be helpful - makes it cleaner, but also may introduce some other problems like blocked off oil passages, etc. I've seen people use just about everything there - ATF, Kerosene, Diesel, paint thinner, etc. If it was me - I probably wouldn't bother too much with that idea since I run synthetic motor oil almost exclusively.

 

Not having a second car is really throws a wrench in the works. Doesn't matter how much you plan ahead - like they say - $hit happens. I ran into a situation where I had everything I needed and some extra parts - ended up snapping a bolt off inside the head, eventually used a screw extractor and a helicoil to fix it - but that entailed another trip to the parts store. Or having parts in hand and find out too late that the dealer or parts store boned you by giving you the wrong part (happens about 25% of the time for me). If you work on it through the night - might mean waiting until the next day to get a part, if it is in stock.

 

Hats off to you for taking on a pretty tough project - hope that everything works out. Good Luck.

Edited by fishexpo101

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Thanks guys! I'm not sure how much of that stuff i'll be able to get my hands on (aka afford). I forgot that I had a set of head bolts on order as well (damn me but parts are hard as hell to find for this engine, shame on you toyota). I don't have a factory service manual - I have done a rering before, though. I will be leaving the engine in the car while I do the rings (aka nightmare mode). At least I don't have to contend with the exhaust going under the motor.

 

Bitter: (that's how i feel about this whole deal) the reason I'm replacing the rings on such a new engine is that the compression is as follows: 120 138 160 125 (with oil in cyl 165 168 232 230). Just a "bit" out of spec and it's using about a quart of oil every 80 miles. that's not a typo. The worst part is that I've been real gentle with this engine since i got it at ~48k it has just over 100k now. I'm using 4oz of sea foam for the next couple days (my daily drive is ~ 2 miles) to flush the motor a bit.

 

fish: Any idea on the cost for the valve tools? I'm on a budget that gets tighter every tool... but I'd really like to pop in the new valve seals while I'm there. I don't have any hope of getting new lifters right now but I will check, I know it's possible to change them without removing the head. I have a set of L-shaped torx wrenches - will that be enough or do I need the socket type?

 

As far as the toyota silicone, is that like the "ultra Black" permatex?

Edited by tomservo

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Valve tools are generally pretty expensive - only way around that is to buddy up with a tech at Toyota , find a place that will rent them out, retailers like Harbor Freight (cheap stuff but questionable quality), or eBay. I got a micrometer and in-lb resolution torque wrench (usually around $300) for $50 on eBay a few years back. The valve compressor is the most critcal of the components - there isn't a good place to put one of those lever type compressors on there.

 

Those lifter cups can come out without too much hassle - tie off the timing chain (to prevent it from falling in - otherwise you will be sorry), lift out the cams, and use a pickup tool to pull the lifter out. When I rebuilt an older 5SFE engine - I just reused the old lifters that fixed the clearance in places where the valves were out of spec. Then I just bought the ones I needed - but still cost be about $40-$50 for each lifter.

 

L-shaped Torx will wor - but you many not be able to get it torqued down as accurately as with a socket type. I'd hold off personally on those bits - since they are outrageously expensive.

 

The "Ultra Black" Permatex stuff is great stuff - I've had no problems with that and I believe it is OK'd for use in the service manual, at least its Three Bond brand equivalent.

 

The only thing that I'm afraid of with your crazy oil usuage is a broken piston ring land. Doesn't happen often on N/A cars - but I've seen it before. Hopefully it is a broken ring, extremely worn rings, or bad valve seals giving you problems.

 

A part that I forgot to mention is a piston ring filer or carbide files if you don't have one - to size up the rings.

 

Post up what you find in there - be very interesting to see what really causes so much oil consumption in some Corollas and not others.

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Good price on the that compressor Bitter. I have one just like it at home. But I'm not sure if I feel comfortable using that on our cars. That will work if you get the optional bar that run across the head to be used as a pivot point for the compressor. Otherwise you will have to hook that end on the cam and use that as an attachment point. Might be OK - but Toyota calls for a C-Clamp style compressor - got to be a reason for that.

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Good price on the that compressor Bitter. I have one just like it at home. But I'm not sure if I feel comfortable using that on our cars. That will work if you get the optional bar that run across the head to be used as a pivot point for the compressor. Otherwise you will have to hook that end on the cam and use that as an attachment point. Might be OK - but Toyota calls for a C-Clamp style compressor - got to be a reason for that.

i personally prefer the C style as well, those are pretty cheap too.

 

OT: i used to have a little oil burn at the initial startup and determined it was my valve seals leaking a little bit after the car set for 2 days. i sucked some trans fluid into the intake manifold and let it sit in the manifold and cylinders for over night and in the morning (12 hours later) i started and drove it and burned out the trans fluid. i havent had any oil burn on startup since then :)

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Bitter - sweet deal, sometimes the old school methods work the best. Fortunantly, I have been pretty trouble free with oiling issues - EVAP issues, on the other hand, are a different beast. If I ever run into an oiling issue - I might try out the ATF treatment :D .

 

tomservo - you mentioned SeaFoam, is this something that you as part of the daily maintenance, due ot short trips, or first time deal to help flush out the motor. So far - I've noted several people using SeaFoam, getting great results, and then 6-7 months down the road experiencing some oil consumption (either very mild or quite severe). Not sure if it is due to not following the direction explicitly or the actual product. It would be interesting.

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yea tom should go old school and just run a 1/2 mix of atf and kendall gt-1 oil for about 300 miles or so and see of that loosens anything. it sounds like stuck rings to me since the oiled compression test yeilded high results. from the oiled results we know that compression is being lost past the rings and theres blowby into the crank case. it would be interesting to divert the pcv into a catch can and see if thats where the oil is going to since he doesnt see any burning and its unlikely that oil will flow UP past rings, not that much alteast. you could also try flooding the engine manually with a strong solvent.

 

this would involve pulling the spark plugs and pouring a strong solvent (carbosol from sunnyside chemicals comes to mind) into the cylinders about 1/4 inch deep and letting it sit for a couple days. some will seep down past the rings and dissolve deposits that could be sticking rings. after it sits like that for a couple days then start the car for a few minutes till it warms then drain and change the oil and filter and see if that helps to resolve the problem.

 

carbosol can be bought at places like menards or possibly home depot and maybe lowes. i havent looked for it anywhere other than menards. this stuff is strong and pretty nasty stuff (it'll dissolve WAX!), DO NOT BREATHE THE BURNING VAPORS! the chemical name is Trichloroethlyne.

 

you might want to remove the O2 sensors and unhook the cat before you burn the solvent out, im not sure if its harmful to sensors or cats, i'd hate for my advice to cause more problems. also this will thin the oil, but im not sure by how much.

Edited by Bitter

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also while you have the head and oil pan off (if you do that) flush some solvents down throught the oil passages and some radiator flush solution throught the water passages.

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Wow, thanks for the info, guys.. I'll need to spend some time digesting it all :)

 

Solvents suitable for flushing the oil passages, something like carb cleaner maybe?

 

Do i need an inch-lb torque wrench to do the valve seals? I was thinking of taking off each valve and just punching in the new seals, reassembling. Good idea, or bad idea? I'm definitely can't afford to fiddle with the lifters and valves themselves, but the gasket kit came with seals and i'd like to at least clean up the valves and put on the seals. I don't get any smoke at startup (unless i'm running a leakdown test lol)

 

This is my first time using sea foam - I'm just using it to flush.

 

A few months ago I went to oil up and started pouring ATF down the oil hole - kind of freaked me out a bit. I did an oil change the next day (had to go to work). Didn't seem to help or hurt anything though. Glad to hear it's actually a remedy :)

 

I'm not sure I'll be able to get it all done monday - my reamer was supposed to arrive on friday from snap-on (same price as anyone else with half a name brand) but didn't show up, and my dealer didn't call me back. I'm a bit miffed.

 

What about the spring compressors that just grab the spring?

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carb cleaner is just fine. you'll want to be sure that the passages dont have any blockages or that no peices of gunk fell into them or came loose and got into them. after you spray down some carb cleaner blow down some compressed air gently.

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pickup enough trans fluid to fill the engine to the full oil mark and drive it around with transfluid for oil for a little bit after it idles to warm. drive it very gently, just up and down your street once or twice. trans fluid has very strong detergents in it and will really clean out any buildups and deposits in the engine. do this before changing the bearings.

 

why are you replacing rings after only 5 years?

 

also i dont think you realize how long it takes to properly hone an Iron sleeved engine. you need to have a cross hatch pattern crossing at about 30 degrees

 

http://www.saturnfans.com/photos/watermark.php?file=15586

 

it should look like the cylinder on the left.

 

for breakin run an oil like kendal gt-1. its cheap and has alot of detergents, its a good break in oil. let the car idle for about 45 minutes to an hour then change oil hot. fill it back up with gt-1 and drive normally (no flooring it no hard driving) then change again at 500 miles. next change at 1k miles, and then you should be ok to resume a normal change interval and driving it pretty much however you want. those first changes however will yeild black nasty looking oil.

I didn't know you could change out regular engine oil and replace it with automatic transmission fluid? Do you recommend doing that occassionally to clean up engines internally?? It sounds interesting. My cars don't burn any oil, but I would be interested in knowing what can be used to clean the engine and keep it running clean.

Edited by Bikeman982

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generally you'd do it before replacing bearings since transfluid is too thin to be ran as oil by itself. however you can add it to your oil, not sure on how much is safe, on occassion to help keep it clean inside. i'm going to run a part of a quart through with my old mobil1 before i change my oil in about a week.

 

 

i've also heard of people adding a little to a tank of gas sometimes and that can help clean carbon buildup out. theres a guy in my class that adds a little to the tank of his old dodge truck and he swears by it. not sure how it would work on a fuel injected car with sensors and a cat, i personally wouldnt add it, a bottle of good injector cleaner works better. i swear by chevron techron, i looked in my clylinders before using it and i had some small peices of carbon on the tops of the pistsons. after using it the top of the piston that i can see is cleaner looking, just the normal thin film of carbon thats to be expected on a higher mileage car. redline sl-1 is comprable to techron ive been told and i beleive it.

 

so the original question in summary: if you're not about to replacing bearings then just run a mix of trans and normal oil, but i'm not sure on the ratio. maybe 3/4 oil and 1/4 trans fluid? i'll run about 1/2 a quart through the engine (over fill it 1/2 quart and just run it like that, it shouldnt hurt it should it?) then change a week later and let you all know how much nastier it is :P

 

one thing about transfluid that concerns me is this...im not sure how high of temps its made to take, i worry about it sludging if you were to use it all the time and in the summer and such. my engine stays nice and cool in the winter (hell in the summer too :) never been past the 1/2 way mark on the guage ever) but for some of the newer 1.8L toyotas which i hear run a bit warmer i'd be worried about that. maybe just run it prior to an oil change. also probably should use the chrysler/mitsu ATF as its made for higher temps and has more additives in it.

Edited by Bitter

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