Difference In Build Quality? Usa Vs Canada

My 03 CE (built 5/02) had several cosmetic issues including the radio gap TSB.

My son's 03 LE (built 6 month's later) had 0 issues.

My 03 CE (built 5/02) had several cosmetic issues including the radio gap TSB.

I had to take my 05 (built 09/04 in cambridge, Ont.) for what appears to be the same defect. i.e. the radio was rattling in its mounting or with adjacent air vents.

It was very annoying and I soon took the car to the dealer who was well aware of the situation by the description of the problem I had told them.

The technician pulled the radio and center vents and applied thin black insulated tape all around the radio and mounting points. Cured the problem but the interior is still rattly when cold.

Is that the TSB you are referring to?

And is Toyota KAIZEN- CONTINUOUS IMPROVEMENT Policy really implemented thoroughly?

My 97 Cambridge-built has no problems so far, with 186K km on it.

My buddy's '93 J-vin ditto no problems, over 136K km on it.

Backseat Driver

The Dark Side Of the Globe

Jerry Flint, 01.10.05, 12:00 AM ET

Detroit is shipping too much of the engineering and design of cars abroad. I figure it has already lost the ability to build a small car from scratch.

More From Jerry Flint

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The mantra of the modern economics writer is "globalism." I don't have a problem with globalism generally, but I worry about how the American automobile industry may, thanks to globalism, find itself unable to create and engineer a car in America. Detroit has turned to globalism to build vehicles better, faster, cheaper. But for some reason this means that nowadays Detroit ships the good jobs overseas, and I'm not convinced the vehicles come out better, faster and cheaper.

At General Motors the design of the basic underpinnings for most of the cars comes from abroad, which means Germany. The design of the basic machinery of the smaller cars, such as the Saturn Ion and Chevrolet Cobalt, comes from Europe. The same is true for the midsize Chevy Malibu and Pontiac G-6, derivatives of the German Opel and cousins (mechanically, anyway) of the Swedish Saab 9-3. The guts of big cars with rear drive, which is the coming thing, will be done by Australians.

A note on terminology: The "underpinnings" I am talking about used to be called, back in the days when Americans ruled the auto industry, a "frame and chassis." That meant frame, wheels and machinery. Along with the shift to front-drive cars came new jargon--first "platform" and then, with globalism, "architecture." In the really old days they called these things chassis.

At Ford, a Mazda chassis, the Mazda 6, is to be used on ten new Fords, including next fall's Ford Fusion sedan and its Mercury and Lincoln sisters, as well as a European Ford and Volvo. Oddly enough, while the Mazda 6 car is a home run in Europe, it isn't much of a success here. The new Ford 500 sedan and Freestyle sport utility use a platform derived from a Swedish Volvo.

Chrysler, owned by the German DaimlerChrysler, won't use its Mercedes platforms on humble American cars, but it does lend its designs for important components such as suspensions and transmissions.

The idea is to make the American makes more competitive, and sometimes it works. The new Chrysler 300 is an example. Those German-designed parts help the car, which is last year's success story. And let me be fair. I've talked about cars and only cars. The trucks, the pickups, the sport utilities and the minivans are still designed and engineered here by the Detroit companies.

But I worry about the cars, and often this global borrowing doesn't help. The last two Saturn cars, both built from European chassis designs, were failures. And the world cars--cars built here that are not mere borrowers of mechanical parts but copies of European cars--have been a flop. Examples were the Ford Contour and Mercury Mystique, eventually killed, which were versions of the European Ford Mondeo.

The problem with using a foreign platform is that it must be a compromise: not the best starting point for the American car but the best that can be worked out from a vehicle designed for Europe first. The car people say they are saving money with the global platforms. But they seem to be losing more money than they are saving. I think they are fooling themselves.

The Europeans have even higher costs but still design and build their own small cars. They just try to make them cute enough to earn a good price. The BMW Mini, for example. I figure Detroit has already lost the ability to build a small car from scratch. GM, for instance, is taking cars from its Korean unit, Daewoo, sticking "Chevrolet" badges on them and shipping them around the world.

Some insist that the Japanese are succeeding with global platforms or even global cars. It's difficult to tell exactly what the Japanese are doing, but here's one thing they don't do: They don't let the engineering get out of their country. They manufacture in the U.S. and they do some design work here, but the bulk of the mechanical engineering stays at home.

I like the side of globalism that impels those foreign companies to build factories here. Hyundai is finishing its new plant in Alabama. Toyota is putting up a truck plant in Texas; Mercedes is expanding its sport utility plant in Alabama.

Detroit has tough problems: Japan's auto profits are fueling a vast technological charge that is leaving us behind. The low-cost Korean cars and Chinese parts put us at a competitive disadvantage. And the huge legacy costs--the health care and pension costs pinned on each Detroit car--are staggering, $1,500 for every GM vehicle. But I don't want to see Detroit yield too readily to the forces of globalization. That will ultimately result in a loss of expertise.

I have a white '04 LE built in California. A friend liked mine so much that she went out and bought a white '04 LE, which we found out later, was built at the Ottawa plant. The cars look exactly alike on the outside. My interior is tan/beige, her's is grey. I have a stick, she has an automatic. As far as quality - both seem very solid. This is my first Toyota and I'm very impressed. So impressed that I am trying to get my wife to sell her LeSabre Limited and get a Camry.

Its actually in Oshawa

BTW I wouldn't worry about it being built in the US. Toyota has a manufacturing philosophy that seems to apply to ALL their plants, not just the Japanese ones. Thats one area where Honda and Toyota beat Nissan and Mazda. Nissan and Mazda have noticable quality drops on their North American built cars, Honda and Toyota don't.

Our Corolla has had a few build quality issues (damn window stripping keeps falling out), but its a very early production model. Canadian built.

The toyota plant is in cambridge ontario is it not? Mazda is made in fords factory as ford basically owns them now....which is by the way a major issue with me, so don't get me startedd.....

An update on my new (had it for 5 days now) 2005 Corolla LE: I took it to the dealership today, and they fixed both the paint stains and the crooked instrument cluster successfully. Apparently both problems were the ones described in the service bulletins that the99contour mentioned. Now my car finally appears to be brand new with no flaws, except some other minor misaligned parts in the interior that I am willing to live with. I finally feel happy owning it, and look forward to making many long commutes in it.

For us owners on Canadian built "rollas, you will find this link interesting.

www.tmmc.ca/

Toyota Motor Manufacturing Canada, Inc.

1055 Fountain Street North

Cambridge, Ontario

N3H 5K2, Canada

FWIW............amazingly, a great many of my past vehicles were built in Canada.

My 2002 Suzuki Vitara.

1997, 1999 Dodge Intrepids.

1975 Chrysler Cordoba

1979 Mercury Grand Marquis.

The chrysler and the Mercury I bought used so its not a fair comparison to say whether or not they were "quality" vehicles solely based on north-of-the-border assembly.

The zuke and the intrepids however, were good vehicles. The zuke was ok until some rather nasty engine knock appeared (engine was made in Japan ) and the two zuke dealers were totally non responsive to my needs and concerns. Hence the Corolla in my garage now.

The toyota plant is in cambridge ontario is it not? Mazda is made in fords factory as ford basically owns them now....which is by the way a major issue with me, so don't get me startedd.....

A colleague of mine worked for another automotive supplier to Ford, producing parts for their Escape, the entry-level 'economy' SUV.

Ford really, really dropped the ball on that market. Mazda was ready to launch the Tribute (same platform as Escape) waaaaay before Honda and Toyota had dreamed up their CRV and RAV-4, respectively. Ford forced their Mazda cohorts to delay the launch (for some unearthly reason which eludes me), Honda and Toyota jumped in with their vehicles, and to this day nobody even knows what the Tribute/Escape is. I defy you to count three Tributes or Escapes on the road on your drive to and from work.

For us owners on Canadian built "rollas, you will find this link interesting.

www.tmmc.ca/

Toyota Motor Manufacturing Canada, Inc.

1055 Fountain Street North

Cambridge, Ontario

N3H 5K2, Canada

FWIW............amazingly, a great many of my past vehicles were built in Canada.

My 2002 Suzuki Vitara.

1997, 1999 Dodge Intrepids.

1975 Chrysler Cordoba

1979 Mercury Grand Marquis.

The chrysler and the Mercury I bought used so its not a fair comparison to say whether or not they were "quality" vehicles solely based on north-of-the-border assembly.

The zuke and the intrepids however, were good vehicles. The zuke was ok until some rather nasty engine knock appeared (engine was made in Japan ) and the two zuke dealers were totally non responsive to my needs and concerns. Hence the Corolla in my garage now.

Here in Québec, we used to build the Firebird and Camaro in Boisbriand (since the '70s, I believe), and of course, we had a Hyundai plant in Bromont, Eastern Townships, of all places. Now, with all the automotive suppliers (injection molders, electronics companies, testers, tool-and-die shops, extruders, etc) located in SW Ontario, La Belle Province Québec (and other provinces for that matter) are not an obvious choice as locations for an assembly plant.

In the States, I find the industry is more de-centralized. Sure, most of it is in the Midwest (Michigan, Ohio, Indiana, Missouri), but there are major operations everywhere: Kentucky, Tennessee, Va, West Va, Jersey, even Cali...

Tinto,

You're in Quebec also?

Did you mention Quebec side of Ottawa? Hull/Gatineau area I suppose?

The GM Ste-Thérèse plant was built in the 60's. And GM kept it open that many years by begging taxpayer's $$ every now and then. Good thing they left...

For years, they couldn't take advantage of a very low Can $.

Funny also that Hyundai poured a bundle of their's and our money in a plant that they promptly shut down a few months later because of poor sales of the first Sonata (89 or so). The plant sold last week for 2.4M$. Yes, 2.4M. And they went out and built one in the US, probably taking advantage of incentives offered by the state and other legislatures, read, taxpayer's money.

"Ohio, Indiana, Missouri), but there are major operations everywhere: Kentucky, Tennessee, Va, West Va, Jersey, even Cali..."

Actually, the Ohio, Indiana, and Kentucky facilities are only about 200 miles apart, maximum. Ohio, Tennessee, WVa, V, and Missouri all border KY. (The Toyota plant in Kentucky is less than 70 miles from the Ohio border.) With the exception of Cali and Jersey, I'd have to say I think it is pretty centralized, especially for such a ridiculously enormous country. I live near the KY plant, and you cannot imagine how many Camrys we see around here. It is the best-selling car in the states of course, but here,it seems most people drive the hometown brand!

Tinto,

You're in Quebec also?

Did you mention Quebec side of Ottawa? Hull/Gatineau area I suppose?

The GM Ste-Thérèse plant was built in the 60's. And GM kept it open that many years by begging taxpayer's $$ every now and then. Good thing they left...

For years, they couldn't take advantage of a very low Can $.

Funny also that Hyundai poured a bundle of their's and our money in a plant that they promptly shut down a few months later because of poor sales of the first Sonata (89 or so). The plant sold last week for 2.4M$. Yes, 2.4M. And they went out and built one in the US, probably taking advantage of incentives offered by the state and other legislatures, read, taxpayer's money.

I'm from the Montreal area, and that's why the GM and Hyundai cash sink-holes hit close to home for me. You're right: the GM plant would've celebrated its 40th anniversary this year. Supposedly, it will be completely demolished and prepared for a multi-use complex (residential-industrial-commercial) of some 3 million sq. ft.

I live near the KY plant, and you cannot imagine how many Camrys we see around here. It is the best-selling car in the states of course, but here,it seems most people drive the hometown brand!

Plus the employees of the plant must get a good deal on a new car. At Lear Corp., under the X Plan, we could get any car under the Ford banner (including Mazda and Volvo) for dealer invoice plus 3%.

Tinto,

I'm in Montreal.

The demolition of the GM plant is underway. Quite impressive how big it was when you drive along highway 15.

And in 5-10 years down the road, that multi-use complex, they are going to build, will probably have crated more jobs and bring in more tax money for the municipalities and governments than if artificial respiration were given again to that moribund GM plant.

If somebody is trying to make themselves feel better or worse about where a car was built, more power to them.

In reality there's no big difference between where a car is built and though this board doesn't like to hear it, the brand makes very little difference either.

But if you think that having a Toyota badge and a Japan sticker is an iron clad guarantee of trouble free driving you've been fooled.

It really sounds like people scare themselves into buying some brands rather than see the truth.

If somebody is trying to make themselves feel better or worse about where a car was built, more power to them.

In reality there's no big difference between where a car is built and though this board doesn't like to hear it, the brand makes very little difference either.

But if you think that having a Toyota badge and a Japan sticker is an iron clad guarantee of trouble free driving you've been fooled.

It really sounds like people scare themselves into buying some brands rather than see the truth.

Now you can have issues with that if you choose. However since you shout for facts, go look at the market place where these cars are bought and sold.

Then go ask a die hard Honda or Toyota owner WHY he drives japanese cars.

The answer might open your eyes.

By the way, exactly what is the "truth" you are so hung up about?

Tinto- Yep- Toyota team members get a huge discount on Toyotas at local dealers. Lots of them buy the cars built at the plant, of course, but a few go for a 'rolla. I don't know if their deal is as good as the one you got, though. Wow!

If somebody is trying to make themselves feel better or worse about where a car was built, more power to them.

In reality there's no big difference between where a car is built and though this board doesn't like to hear it, the brand makes very little difference either.

But if you think that having a Toyota badge and a Japan sticker is an iron clad guarantee of trouble free driving you've been fooled.

It really sounds like people scare themselves into buying some brands rather than see the truth.

We have see the truth. Matter of fact, we lived the truth with american cars. Truth be told, (and backed up by JD Powers, Consumer Reports, Consumers digest) japanese cars hold up better than american cars.

 

Now you can have issues with that if you choose. However since you shout for facts, go look at the market place where these cars are bought and sold.

Then go ask a die hard Honda or Toyota owner WHY he drives japanese cars.

The answer might open your eyes.

By the way, exactly what is the "truth" you are so hung up about?

"the brand makes very little differnce"???

thats almost a hysterical comment.....look at all the 10-15 year old civics and corollas on the road, compair that to the # of fords you see?? .....i need not say more.

I have chosen to buy only foreign cars until American car companies get their act together and make cars that will last as long as Japanese cars. There is no reason why they can't do it. I suspect "the profit motive" is getting in the way of them building a decent car that will outlast the payments.

I made this decision after watching my parents struggle with a string of bad GM cars in the '80's, and pouring paycheck after paycheck into crappy vehicles that were never designed to be on the roads for more than 5 years. They still have not learned from their mistakes, but I have!!

I do not buy Japanese cars just to have a Japanese name on my car, but because I know that the car will be solidly built and will last years beyond the payments are over. So far I have not been confident that an American car is capable of doing the same.

I have chosen to buy only foreign cars until American car companies get their act together and make cars that will last as long as Japanese cars. There is no reason why they can't do it. I suspect "the profit motive" is getting in the way of them building a decent car that will outlast the payments. I made this decision after watching my parents struggle with a string of bad GM cars in the '80's, and pouring paycheck after paycheck into crappy vehicles that were never designed to be on the roads for more than 5 years. They still have not learned from their mistakes, but I have!!

 

I do not buy Japanese cars just to have a Japanese name on my car, but because I know that the car will be solidly built and will last years beyond the payments are over. So far I have not been confident that an American car is capable of doing the same.

If somebody is trying to make themselves feel better or worse about where a car was built, more power to them.

In reality there's no big difference between where a car is built and though this board doesn't like to hear it, the brand makes very little difference either.

But if you think that having a Toyota badge and a Japan sticker is an iron clad guarantee of trouble free driving you've been fooled.

It really sounds like people scare themselves into buying some brands rather than see the truth.

We have see the truth. Matter of fact, we lived the truth with american cars. Truth be told, (and backed up by JD Powers, Consumer Reports, Consumers digest) japanese cars hold up better than american cars.

 

Now you can have issues with that if you choose. However since you shout for facts, go look at the market place where these cars are bought and sold.

Then go ask a die hard Honda or Toyota owner WHY he drives japanese cars.

The answer might open your eyes.

By the way, exactly what is the "truth" you are so hung up about?

But let's not feed the trolls...

Our Corolla has had a few build quality issues (damn window stripping keeps falling out), but its a very early production model. Canadian built.

I have chosen to buy only foreign cars until American car companies get their act together and make cars that will last as long as Japanese cars.  There is no reason why they can't do it.  I suspect "the profit motive" is getting in the way of them building a decent car that will outlast the payments.  I made this decision after watching my parents struggle with a string of bad GM cars in the '80's, and pouring paycheck after paycheck into crappy vehicles that were never designed to be on the roads for more than 5 years.  They still have not learned from their mistakes, but I have!!

 

I do not buy Japanese cars just to have a Japanese name on my car, but because I know that the car will be solidly built and will last years beyond the payments are over.  So far I have not been confident that an American car is capable of doing the same.

Theres lots of American cars that can last as long as their Japanese competition. The quality gap isn't as big as it was 15, or even 5 years ago. Theres plenty of GM and Ford models that have no trouble getting to the 200,000 mile mark if you take care of them properly.

I work at a garage so I see a large variety of cars being worked on every day. I've seen plenty of domestic cars... Escorts, SL2s, Corsicas, Tempos, Luminas, Crown Vics (especially), Buicks etc that have over 300,000km and are still running strong. Just like I've seen plenty of Toyotas, Hondas, and Mazdas that are the same. They have one thing in common: owners that take care of them.

Then, I've also seen both Domestics and Imports that are complete beaters before they hit 150,000km. They also have one thing in common: owners who don't take care of them.

If you maintain your car and don't abuse it will last. If you don't change the oil, flog the engine, etc it won't last. That is the same no matter where the car is built. Look no further than your local taxi fleet. Probably made up entirely of domestic Impalas and Crown Vics that are constantly on the road in harsh urban conditions but still manage to last past the 300,000km mark with the proper maintenance.

Of course theres exceptions. No car is perfect. You will always see ones that were maintained perfectly and still had catastrophic failures at under 100,000 km. But, the Japanese aren't immune to that either. You can see that just by reading this forum.

This is true, i drove a corsica that i used for a delivery car and i drove it into the ground, redline shifts without using the clutch, ebrake corners on dry road...good times in that old car, and it wouldnt die, i tried....it lasted till i passed it on to the next guy to do the same as i did, but on the other hand, my family has had a string of GM made cars over the years, nothing but problems in all of them and my parents certainly don't abuse vehicals, they just arn't made as high quality as a import vehical...you can tell the quality levels strongly differ just by driving them....domestics just feel cheaper...i mean of course there is well built domestics, cadillac and mercuries are generally fairly nice to drive, but a focus to a civc or corolla?? a cavalier to civic or corolla..thats something you can't deny really....