2006 With A Bouncy Tachometer - Toyota Corolla, Chevy Prizm (1998-2008)

I posted this in two forums...unintentionally. Hopefully the moderators will remove it from where ever it doesn't belong.

My 06 Toyota Corolla started having a bouncy tachometer about two months ago where it jumps in the RPMs but the engine itself isn't actually revving as high as the tach says. I mean it is jumps up and down to the red line and just all over the place. After the car has been running for a bit it seems to go away. Once I got a PO353 engine code but that hasn't come back in a month. And it only came on once...and after starting the car 4 times, went off. I am not sure if I should bring this to my local mechanic or risk paying a high $$ to the Toyota mechanic. Anybody have any ideas?

A "jumping" tachometer can be caused by a number of things - but given that CEL you had before, I'd have the ECM scanned for old and new codes. Chances are, you have a bad coil that is causing part of the problem - the rest of the issue could be in the wiring or the ECM itself. Hard to say for sure without diagnosing the electricals.

Since I am not one to play this much with a car - could replace the coil I guess....but other than that, that's about it....I am not sure where to bring it. I don't want a dealer to gouge me....but if it by chance is the ECM - that would be under warranty...have 69,000 on the car right now. I have the print out below. Not sure if that helps any....I find it odd that the vehicle speed sensor is at 4mph or is that normal? I got one of those diagnostic tools so that it might give me a clue and that's where I got this from. This is the only time the check engine light has come on....and like I said - it then went away. I'm really bummed and have to bring this into the dealer the end of this week or the local shop on Monday.

=== Stored Error Code(s) ===

Error Code: P0353

Possible Causes:

Freeze Frame Information:

1. DTC for which Freeze Frame was Stored - P0353.

2. Fuel System 1 Status - Closed Loop.

3. Fuel System 2 Status - Not Supported.

4. Calculated LOAD Value - 57.25 %.

5. Engine Coolant Temp - 186.80 °F.

6. Short Term Fuel Trim - Bank 1 - 5.47 %.

7. Long Term Fuel Trim - Bank 1 - 7.81 %.

8. Engine RPM - 1,926.50 Rpm.

9. Vehicle Speed Sensor - 4.35 Mph.

10. Ignition Timing Advance #1 Cylinder - 16.50 °.

11. Intake Air Temperature - 93.20 °F.

12. Air Flow Rate Mass Air Flow Sensor - 2.58 Lb/Min.

13. Absolute Throttle Position - 25.88 %.

Actually that freeze frame data is very helpful. Some of the numbers make sense, some are a little odd - assuming this frame is a fully warmed up car, idling and stationary.

Could possibly a bad chassis ground somewhere - as the 1ZZ-FE engine and electronics are very picky about electrical noise. If recent electrical work was done, I would double check all chassis ground under the hood and verify that the battery terminal connections are clean and tight - before you start swapping parts.

Well, I'm not sure how warmed up the car actually was but I can do it again this evening. The car was a little warmed but the temp was not at the halfway point which would mean that it had been running for awhile.

The only 'electrical' work I have done was install a new radio back in 2006 and a few months back - I took the radio out because I thought I had to plug the new ipod adaptor into it....but I didn't, so I just put it back in. In fact, I pulled it out again this weekend to double check all the wiring thinking that maybe I did something...but like I said...pulled it out - put it back....everything seemed ok.

Here is an update right now on this car....NOTHING! I brought it into a local shop and they said they believed that things pointed to the computer and to take it to Toyota. I took it to Toyota...Toyota says that nothing is wrong but a bad tachometer and that they would replace it for $785. No thank you. Last week, I was backing the car up and it sputtered, check engine light on again....4 engine restarts and it is back off. This morning I turned my car on for a minute after I'd already driven it and it started sputtering badly like it was going to die....check engine light came on. I'm going to get those codes this afternoon and see if it is the same as above or different... I'm at a loss right now though...not sure what to do without spending a whole bunch of $$. I was trying to get the service guy at Toyota to give me a good deal on a yaris default_wink ...at least they didn't charge me....but I also argued with them a bit....especially since they had my car at 4pm Monday and still had no answer as to what was wrong until about 3:30pm the next day....

The sputtering is not a good thing - did you notice if the CEL was flashing at all during that time, or just stayed constantly lit?

Some 2005+ Corollas have been diagnosed with bad ECMs - usually the manifest as rough shifting and/or no start / no run conditions. The symptoms you have sound like a bad ECM is possible, especially the no start/hard starting - but as you've seen, the hardest part is finding a mechanic to say - "yes" the ECM is bad.

Given the other "wierd" electrical issues with the car, I would not rule out the ECM causing those issues, but I wouldn't rule out some electrical problem either. The 1ZZ-FE is pretty picky about electrical noise, just a little bit more noise past a certain threshold and the car will act and run badly.

The number of potential sources to cause those symptoms is pretty staggering - sounds like the shop is not doing as much as they can to isolate and rule out components from their diagnostic work. Assumming that they didn't work on your car overnight, as that is probably how much labor is involved to track down this problem, or at the very least rule out parts that aren't causing it.

Bring up the possibility of a bad ECM with the tech/service writer. Be nice about, don't argue - if they won't budge, then escalate it to their supervisor, then to the owner. If that doesn't get you some resolution - then try contacting Toyota corporate and submit a complaint to the BBB. Many times the latter will "affect" a fix from the dealership - that happened to my old Dodge truck - truck has been in and out of the shop for more than 18 months in a 24 month period! All different reasons, so didn't fall under the "lemon law" - called Corporate and BBB - the very next day, they had be bring the truck by and "magically" had a fix for me.

Thanks for the information and advice. I really can't say I argued...that was probably the wrong wordage. I would say that I disagreed and brought up the issue of the bad ECM. I am pretty sure that the CEL stayed continuously lit.... I'm going to see if I can recreate the scenario....air conditioning, speed, etc. The only change I did with the electrical was plug in an ipod adaptor to the satellite radio unit....that's the only thing I can think that I did around the time this all started happening. I'm going to talk to my neighbor mechanic tomorrow night and see what he thinks. I also have a friend who has a friend who is a toyota mechanic. I might wind up bringing it to him since he works at a toyota dealership so he should know this stuff.

Well - here's the latest on the car front just in case anybody is reading this or has similar experiences. I read that they are recalling a whole bunch of corollas because of the computers....haven't received anything yet. Lo and behold just yesterday my tach stopped jumping!!!! Yay, right??? No.....now that the tach no longer jumps - my engine rpm's drop to almost 500 and the car sounds like it's going to die....and the CEL now remains on all the time....sigh.... I'm waiting for it to die any day now!

Here is the latest info and trouble code. The engine or something didn't quite sound right.....not sure how to explain it....any heads or tails of this?

=== Stored Error Code(s) ===

Error Code: P0037

Possible Causes:

Freeze Frame Information:

1. DTC for which Freeze Frame was Stored - P0037.

2. Fuel System 1 Status - Closed Loop.

3. Fuel System 2 Status - Not Supported.

4. Calculated LOAD Value - 35.29 %.

5. Engine Coolant Temp - 190.40 °F.

6. Short Term Fuel Trim - Bank 1 - -5.47 %.

7. Long Term Fuel Trim - Bank 1 - 8.59 %.

8. Engine RPM - 1,760.75 Rpm.

9. Vehicle Speed Sensor - 36.04 Mph.

10. Ignition Timing Advance #1 Cylinder - 28.50 °.

11. Intake Air Temperature - 98.60 °F.

12. Air Flow Rate Mass Air Flow Sensor - 1.45 Lb/Min.

13. Absolute Throttle Position - 21.18 %.

P037 is Air Fuel Sensor Heater Control Circuit Low. Doesn't mean much, as that trouble code is likely a symptom of pretty much else. The AFR sensors will still "work" without the heating element. That specific codes doesn't necessarily indicate that the oxygen sensor heater is bad, just that the circuit is not pulling the correct amount of juice. This should be easily verified with a ohmmeter on the heaterside of the sensor - see if the there is an open or short in that circuit.

The driveability issues are more worrisome. It is possible, that all the issues you are seeing are from a dying ECM - but dying in a way that is not typical. Most of those with faulty ECMs had a no-start condition. Car would run perfectly fine one minute - stall and die. Sometimes it would just crank and crank, but not fire. I'd double check and see if your VIN is in the range of the ones affected by this recall.

Good part, is since there is an existing paper trail (workorders) on this car, you have a better chance of getting some resolution from the newer ECMs. The symptoms that you are describing eventually all lead to a faulty ECM. It is part of the diagnostic flow diagram that the technician follows when inspecting the sensors. Good Luck.

Dan_H

My $0.02: If I were you, I'd at least see if the dealership is willing to do the recall replacement of your ECU as early as possible- preferably before the mass-changeouts start in October/November.

I contacted the dealer and am waiting to hear back. This morning....tachometer was back to jumping all over the place and the car was driving 'well' again. CEL is still on but we'll see what happens this afternoon since it takes several starts for it to turn off. I had a 90 minute commute home yesterday and it was soooo stressful thinking the car was going to die. When I was going about 65....the RPMs were not evening running over 2000 which normally my car runs at that speed about 2300 RPMS....this morning, without the bouncy tach - that's what it was doing. Also, when I would hit the brake and stop the gas - and get below about 35 - RPMS would just drop to under 1000. I think it was chugging along at about 500rpms when I made a left turn yesterday..... crazy.... Why do I have the non typical corolla....

Dan_H

I contacted the dealer and am waiting to hear back. This morning....tachometer was back to jumping all over the place and the car was driving 'well' again. CEL is still on but we'll see what happens this afternoon since it takes several starts for it to turn off. I had a 90 minute commute home yesterday and it was soooo stressful thinking the car was going to die. When I was going about 65....the RPMs were not evening running over 2000 which normally my car runs at that speed about 2300 RPMS....this morning, without the bouncy tach - that's what it was doing. Also, when I would hit the brake and stop the gas - and get below about 35 - RPMS would just drop to under 1000. I think it was chugging along at about 500rpms when I made a left turn yesterday..... crazy.... Why do I have the non typical corolla....

That sounds like an ECU going into a safe mode. The CEL going on and off might be due to a pending fault that is cleared after a few starts.

I had an '06 Matrix ECU fail 8 days after the recall was announced. At that point, most starts failed or it idled less than 10 seconds. Sometimes it would start and continue running, but be in safe mode and not rev over ~1500 RPM. About one in 20 starts it behaved normally. The P0607 code that indicated an ECU failure was in a pending state. It is possible that a few clean restarts might have cleared it.

If I were you; If it was misbehaving and the CEL is on, read the code(s) again to see if any other codes are present. I'm with Fish about P0037 not being the likely cause. In a case like this, it might be worth borrowing, renting, or buying a cheap code reader and driving around the neighborhood or empty parking lot until it misbehaves again.

Well....haven't been able to get Toyota to replace the ECU....they say to bring it in and they'll take a look at it. I told them that I didn't want them to take a look at it but to replace my computer....and they just keep saying, yeah - we'll take a look at it. Now it is almost stalling out going highway speeds when it is switching gears.... I'm going to call them one last time today because this is getting ridiculous. I do have an engine code reader - I haven't pulled the last codes in the last few days because I'm trying to get ready to go on a trip but I'll try and do that today.

Ok - just got off the phone with the dealership and they will not replace the computer without looking at it to see if it even needs replacing. They said they do not have a way of getting paid or even the parts for the recall right now. So....I asked them if they did deem that it was the computer...they couldn't even replace it? And the guy went on some diatribe. These folks had my vehicle for two days the last time. This is my only mode of transportation. I guess I'll contact Toyota directly? I really don't want to replace and pay for anything when it could all be related to the computer....what do you think?

I agree, even outside of this recall, the federal emissions warranty will cover the ECM for 8 years/80K miles anyways. I think the dealership is just spinning its wheels, because they do not have a definite CEL that says "the ECM is bad". Unfortunately, finding a shop that has more than 1 or 2 techs that actually can perform diagnostic work beyond what the their information terminal/diagnostic checklist has them do is few and far between.

Elevate this issue in a methodical manner - don't lose your temper, don't curse/shout at the technicians/managers - they're used to it. Don't say your going to sue them or get a lawyer involved, as it will only shutdown all communications to that shop and you will get nowhere with those guys. Keep them talking, keep at it. Escalate this to the service manager, if they won't do something, escalate it to the owner of the dealership - then to Toyota Corporate. If you don't get some resolution, file a complaint with the BBB - 70%-80% you will get a call in 24-48 hours and someone in corporate will "effect" a fix for you.

I truly feel your frustration on this - but this is the fastest way to get it to the proper channels. To go to arbitration (lemon law) could take weeks to months before some resolution comes about.

Well, thank god I didn't tell anyone I'd sue them default_smile that's funny. I understand what you are saying completely! Called Toyota Corporate today....they gave me some confirmation number, told me that they didn't have a fix yet... So - hmmm....ummm, ok! Now what do I do?

Sounds like Toyota is unsure on what to do - time to file a complaint with the BBB - http://www.bbb.org/ See if the dealership will give you a printout of the older bad ECM TSB - they should print that out if you ask them. I'll try and see if I can find that link online, has a range of VIN numbers that are likely to be affected by this ECM TSB. If you car falls in that range - they should have no problem replacing the ECM. NOTE: This is different than the ECM "recall" that is happening, as I don't believe there is a specific VIN range here, they just list the potential number of possible cases. NHTSA Campaign ID #10V384000 - on this faulty ECM issue. Classed as an A1 - BGA conformal coating issue.

EDIT: I found a link to the TSB as a PDF file for '05-'06 Corolla/Matrix here: http://www.matrixowners.com/tsb/T-EG049-06.pdf

Seriously, follow through with a written complaint to the BBB. I've had my share of issues with certain products and services, once I elevated it to the corporate level and filed a complaint with the BBB - I always had some resolution "magically" present itself from someone at corporate within 48-72 hours of submitting it to the BBB.

Wow....here is what is going on now. I haven't contacted the BBB yet but plan to do so next week or this weekend. But, I did contact consumer affairs for the state of VA and they told me to file a complaint and to also write to the dealership where I purchased the vehicle. I sent the General Manager a 3 page email and got this response back from customer relations:

"I am responding to the letter you sent to *********** dated October 15, 2010.

You've taken the correct measures by contacting Toyota's Customer Experience Center and obtaining a case number. Toyota will work closely with the service staff at Miller Toyota to determine if this repair will be covered under your Toyota powertrain warranty. If not, then you would be responsible for the repair charges. The service advisor will also keep you updated on the availability of the required parts to complete the repair.

Please let me know if you have any additional questions."

You would think that there is no recall at all. Am I doing something wrong or not explaining myself correctly? Do you guys get me?

Miller Toyota in Manassas, VA? By chance, do you live in NOVA? If that is the case, small world, I'm also in Northern Virginia myself - Ashburn specifically.

That sounds like a standard reply to consumers - they know about the recall, they are just trying to figure out where you "fit" in that scheme.

I'd forward them this http://www.toyota.com/recall/corolla-matrix.html - it is on the Toyota Main website, if they don't get anywhere with you, contact the BBB and see what happens.

I give that shop one more chance to fix your car - then I'd start looking at another dealership. I know that can be a pain, but sometimes the quickest way to get some resolution. Miller Toyota has a rep for excellent sales staff and decent prices, but service department is a little lackluster. Heading east - Leesburg Toyota is 50/50 - used to go to them for parts, but service seems to have dropped quite a bit. Skip Koons - myself and several others have been screwed over by them - they will not get any more business from me. Jack Taylor's Alexandria Toyota has been working out well for me - but it is a pretty decent trip from where I live at. Service so far has been very good, enough so that I've bought two more Toyota vehicles from them over the past 6 years (both the 2003 and 2009 Matrix).

Hey - that's funny! Yes, I am in Northern Virginia and I know exactly where Ashburn is. I used to live a tad closer when I lived in Centreville! Wow, small world! Well, the letter I was told to send I sent to Koons where I purchased the vehicle (won't do that again) and they were the ones that told me to stick with Miller. Sigh. But, good news is that the CEL went off for a couple of days and I was able to pass the emissions!!!! Yay! Funny thing is that after I got home and restarted my car to go back out - CEL was right back on! I will contact the BBB this week. I hope this issue is not ruining my transmission in the meantime.... But - have you tried the Toyota that opened in Chantilly at the auto center there? Just wondering....haven't heard any input from there yet. Haven't been to Alexandria. I am not far from the Toyota in Arlington but didn't like them at all when they gave me the '100 questions' when I went to buy brake pads and asked - 'you aren't doing this yourself are you?'

Indeed, it is a small world. Used to live in Reston, so Koons in Tysons was the closest dealership with the largest selection. I knew about Carmax at the time, but didn't like that I couldn't negotiate the price at all. Didn't have a problem at Koons until after I signed the paperwork. Car was fine, got the all the rebates, special financing, etc. but the after purchase support was abysmal. Now I cycle between Leesburg Toyota, Ourisman Toyota Chantilly, and Jack Taylor's Alexandria Toyota for my parts needs.

Yeah, depends on which parts person you get at the dealership in Arlington (both Jack Taylor's and Ourisman Arlington). There is always one guy that is pretty mellow, go in tell him what I need and I'm good to go - he also gave me print outs of the parts location when I ask. The other guy, you'll practically have to twist his arm to get him to look-up parts without the VIN#, plus he goes on at length of why I should not be doing it myself.

I did have some service done at that Chantilly auto center (Ourisman Toyota), they actually had the best prices for service/maintenance work at the time. Couple of coworks that live in the Reston/Herndon area of NoVA swear by them. Myself, more or less happy with their work but I have noted that any work that gets done a Friday afternoon/evening is pretty sloppy. Best service stop was to smoke check the EVAP code that popped up on me (P0440, P0446, etc.), watched the tech spend about 3 hours working on the car, he literally tested every part of the EVAP system. Best $85 I've spent at any shop. He identified the issue and even printed out directions on how to do the repair myself - as the labor alone would have been $300-$400. Only goof from them was with my 2002 Corolla's 30K mile service done there, as I was jammed up for time. Koons at Tysons quoted me $1200 + free rental (Perk was that I could pick any new Toyota as a "rental" for the day) for the 30K service, Ourisman quoted me $600 for the exact same thing (rental was whatever used car they had available) + additional things that I wanted done sooner + they detailed the car(could have done it myself for about $130 in parts alone + my time, but like they say, time is money). But the car was rushed, ran it through the automated brush car wash, fine swirl marks everywhere and the drying "carpet" peeled the rear license plate off the car. By that time, service department was closed, but I documented all the issues with the sales staff and brought the car back Saturday to be "fixed".

So now that it has been a few months I figure I'd better post a reply as to how this all played out.

I sent a letter to the Virginia Department of Consumer Affairs and explained the situation. Within about 2 weeks or so, I got a copy of a letter they sent Toyota. They told Toyota that they had 10 days to come back with a course of action. The service manager of Miller Toyota in Manassas called me two days later (on a Friday) and asked me to bring my vehicle as soon as possible to take care of the issue. I tried to stave it off a week but he insisted that any time was a good time and that they needed to get it fixed right away. So - I brought it in Monday afternoon and they showed me the old computer and I took down the serial number of the new one (just in case it wasn't a 'new' and improved one like he said it would be). The Toyota service guy that I was assigned to still never acknowledged any recall and just said that they were doing this under warranty and that I probably have other issues with the vehicle. Regardless....it was replaced and when I went to the cashier to get my keys - she said 'no charge, this was covered under the recall'....haha - she is the only one that has ever even acknowledged an official recall!!! Yay!!! At any rate - I was still nervous....The ECU was replaced in mid November....I am going on 2.5 months with it and not a single CEL!!!!! No stalling, no bouncy tach, no nothing....

Of course about 1.5 months ago my husband brings it in for an oil change and they tell him I have cracks in my belt and it should be replaced soon but it wasn't anything that had to be done immediately. So....I'm assuming that it is the serpentine belt. Guess that will be my next project? I'll have to search this board for guidance.

Thanks for all the help and support on this issue!

Great to hear about this resolution. I can't believe that some techs don't know if there is a recall on a vehicle or not, but I guess that is probably relegated to upper management and other support staff only.

Should be a few DIY guides on replacing the serpentine belt, even for someone that has not done this job, probably takes 30 minutes max to remove and reinstall a new belt. I'd recommend getting a Goodyear Gatorback belt to replace the OEM belt, the Goodyear belt has been getting great reviews on quiet operation and longer life than the OEM Bando belt.