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By phil11, April 20, 2009



Greetings all. I have a 2000 corolla, auto, with just over 144k miles. It has the common problem of oil consumption (I would attribute some of this to poor maintenance from previous owner).

No problems for the first 1000 miles, but as of the last few days, this occured- I threw a po-0410 code, from research notes a possible issue with front o2 sensor. This morning, after just enough time to warm the cat, the check engine light came on, and started flashing. The car began to run bad on the highway, so I turned around and went home. I have a scangauge 2, and once the light finally stopped flashing, I was able to grab the 0320 code. The light continued to flash, and I could tell it was running on couple of cylinders.

I plan on replacing the cat this week, as I am confident it is done for.

I have changed the plugs within the last month, with proper gap (owners manual and I believe it was .034).

What else should I prepare to troubleshoot?

Lucky for me, I have another vehicle.

Thanks for any help.

JP

Hello and Welcome to the forum.

Good that you shut it down quickly - a "flashing" CEL usually points to a condition where engien damage is likely - versus the generic "constantly on" CEL lamp.

The P0410 code is usual, unless you have a non-North American market Corolla - P0410 indicates an issue with the Secondary Air Injection System Malfunction, but I have not run into any North American 8th gen Corolla that had a pump for the air injection system. Plug gap is 0.044" - should stick with OEM iridiums, if possible, some opted to swap in others with spotty results (good example is Bosch +4 Platinums - almost everyone that ran those got misfires).

Since the P0410 code didn't come back right away - probably a "fluke" CEL, but since it was replaced by a P0320 Ignition/Distributor Engine Speed Input Circuit Malfunction - this points at a potentially hard to diagnose issue. Since it is a "circuit" malfunction - the issue could be anywhere from the ECM to the cam position sensor - basically anywhere the wiring runs, could be a case where a wire broke on the inside of the insulation or the insulation has eroded enough to cause one of the signal wires to an igniter to short to ground. Poor chassis grounds, ground loops, or noisy electricals - can cause the ECM to go on an electrical spin.

Suggest a quick look visually - anything that looks out of the ordinary, burnt discolored wiring, loose / hanging wires, etc. Maybe run the scangauge and note some of the parameters that it is spitting out - though I would suggest running the car as little as possible, especially if the CEL is flashing.

Hello and Welcome to the forum.

Good that you shut it down quickly - a "flashing" CEL usually points to a condition where engien damage is likely - versus the generic "constantly on" CEL lamp.

The P0410 code is usual, unless you have a non-North American market Corolla - P0410 indicates an issue with the Secondary Air Injection System Malfunction, but I have not run into any North American 8th gen Corolla that had a pump for the air injection system. Plug gap is 0.044" - should stick with OEM iridiums, if possible, some opted to swap in others with spotty results (good example is Bosch +4 Platinums - almost everyone that ran those got misfires).

Since the P0410 code didn't come back right away - probably a "fluke" CEL, but since it was replaced by a P0320 Ignition/Distributor Engine Speed Input Circuit Malfunction - this points at a potentially hard to diagnose issue. Since it is a "circuit" malfunction - the issue could be anywhere from the ECM to the cam position sensor - basically anywhere the wiring runs, could be a case where a wire broke on the inside of the insulation or the insulation has eroded enough to cause one of the signal wires to an igniter to short to ground. Poor chassis grounds, ground loops, or noisy electricals - can cause the ECM to go on an electrical spin.

Suggest a quick look visually - anything that looks out of the ordinary, burnt discolored wiring, loose / hanging wires, etc. Maybe run the scangauge and note some of the parameters that it is spitting out - though I would suggest running the car as little as possible, especially if the CEL is flashing.

Thanks for the help. I hope the problems stem from the use of the above mentioned plugs. In the week prior, I was hit with the p0400 and a p0402. Do those also coincide with misfires, directed at cylinder 2 this time? Everything else was running fine up to this point.

I will start with swapping back to stock plugs, and report back. I assume the OE plugs are NGK irridiums?

OEM plugs could be NGK or Denso Iridium plugs. Plug gap is the same for all of them - 0.044" gap - almost all Iridiums come pregapped, but a good idea to double check before you install.

Those are weird codes - P0400 and P0402 refer to EGR Flow Malfunction, and EGR Flow Excessive - neither one applies to a 2000 Corolla, as they do not use EGR anymore (assuming you have a North American market Corolla with the original engine).

Cylinder misfires are P0300 (random misfire) - P0301 (cylinder #1), P0302 (cylinder #2), P0303 (cylinder #3), P0304 (cylinder #4)

Make sure the scanner is designed for OBD-II ISO protocal. At a minimum, running a scanner with the wrong protocol will yield non-sensical reports or not connecting at all - worse case, you could "brick" the ECM, i.e. burn it out electrically and turning it into a paperweight - a $1200-$1500 (brand new part) an expensive mistake.

OEM plugs could be NGK or Denso Iridium plugs. Plug gap is the same for all of them - 0.044" gap - almost all Iridiums come pregapped, but a good idea to double check before you install.

Those are weird codes - P0400 and P0402 refer to EGR Flow Malfunction, and EGR Flow Excessive - neither one applies to a 2000 Corolla, as they do not use EGR anymore (assuming you have a North American market Corolla with the original engine).

Cylinder misfires are P0300 (random misfire) - P0301 (cylinder #1), P0302 (cylinder #2), P0303 (cylinder #3), P0304 (cylinder #4)

Make sure the scanner is designed for OBD-II ISO protocal. At a minimum, running a scanner with the wrong protocol will yield non-sensical reports or not connecting at all - worse case, you could "brick" the ECM, i.e. burn it out electrically and turning it into a paperweight - a $1200-$1500 (brand new part) an expensive mistake.

It is really just to clear codes and show them to me. It is a scan gauge 2, and I leave it mounted. I monitor 4 items at a time. It is very easy to move from car to car. I use it in my08 Subaru Sti on the road course.

After checking the box, I seemed to have installed Autolite platinum's. I will change out to iridium plugs tonight. That was my mistake, and I little embarrassing, as I usually pay close attention to my cars maintenance and do most of it DIY.

I made another read through of the manual, so between that and this forum, I should be able to tackle most items. Thanks for your time and help!

Ok, update. Swapped the plugs for irridium. All done with the neg cable disconnected. Cleaned the maf while i was there. Went to start up and still have a rough idle. Once the light flashed again, I turned around. When it went finally stayed on, it was an 0304 code.

Well, I can rule out the plugs, as they are new.

So, I printed out a section of the manual for misfires.

I need to check spark-

fuel injector

o2 sensors and cat. I know the cat is done for. I may have to pull off the exhaust and take it to the shop to weld a new one in.

coil pack

I hope I did not burn a valve

Ignition system

Injector

Fuel line pressure

P0301

P0302

For any particular 200 revolutions for the engine, misfiring is

detected which can cause catalyst overheating (This causes

MIL to blink)

ressure

Compression pressure

Valve clearance not to specification

Valve timing

Manifold absolute pressure sensor

P0303

P0304

For any particular 1,000 revolutions of the engine, misfiring is

detected which causes a deterioration in emissions (2 trip

detection logic)

ressure Engine coolant temp. sensor

Open or short in engine wire

Connector connection

ECM

HINT:

When the 2 or more codes for a misfiring cylinder are recorded repeatedly but no

 

Guest hurlmon

My wifes Camry had a similar problem with the idle and running poor on the highway or under load. Misfire codes too.

I went through changing plugs, wire, checked the injectors, swapped the coils around. It all went away when I cleaned the IAC valve with some deep creep.

My wifes Camry had a similar problem with the idle and running poor on the highway or under load. Misfire codes too.

I went through changing plugs, wire, checked the injectors, swapped the coils around. It all went away when I cleaned the IAC valve with some deep creep.

Well, time was short this weekend.I pulled the coil and plug close to the passengers side. Turned it over and it did spark. I then went to the opposite side, closest to the driver side of the car. Plug was a little wet and no spark. I them tried the next two working back, and no spark.

Should I go ahead and start with the coil packs?

Thanks

So you are saying that only one coil pack/plug seems to be sparking? How do the middle two plugs look, wet, dry, heavy deposits, etc.? I'd try swapping the known good coil pack with one of the non-functional ones to see if it is the coil on plug pack or the signal wiring coming from the ECM. Unusual to have so many go out like this - but not entirely out of the question.

So you are saying that only one coil pack/plug seems to be sparking? How do the middle two plugs look, wet, dry, heavy deposits, etc.? I'd try swapping the known good coil pack with one of the non-functional ones to see if it is the coil on plug pack or the signal wiring coming from the ECM. Unusual to have so many go out like this - but not entirely out of the question.

 

Strange indeed. What is the cylinder numbering, by the way? Is it 1-2-3-4, starting from the passenger side?

I swapped the coil packs around and nothing. No spark. The middle 2 plugs looked ok. I just replaced them, so they have a max of 20-30 miles. On another note, when I went back to the first coil that did spark, I could not get it to do it again.

I did not look, but are the wires from the ECM similar to normal plug wires? As in, can they also be replaced?

When looking at the plugs, I assume wet means not firing and causing fuel to remain on the plugs?

Thanks for all of your help. I will work as time permits. The milage is 134k, and the coils are the stock ones.

Any online vendors that you would go with for ordering parts? I use Rockauto mainly, when I am in no rush.

Correct, cylinder numbering goes from from the serpentine belt to the transaxle (passenger's side to driver's side) from 1 -2 -3 - 4.

Kind of weird that you are getting a weak or no spark - but could explain your misfire codes. Unfortuantly, the ECM signal lines are not easily replaceable - you have to replace nearly the entire wiring harness. But the connections to the coil on plug pack - might be worthwhile to look at them closely and see if they show any signs of corrosion or damage (any cracks in the body connectors).

If swapping the coil packs didn't change anything - I would be looking to check the wiring to each coil on plug unit. The steps of diagnosing these coil packs:

- verify good chassis grounds and power

- make sure the connection is tight to igniter (coil pack)

- verify that 12V+ is getting to the igniter (IGN on, backprobe the connector)

- check resistance of camshaft position sensor

- check resistance of crankshaft position sensor

- check ignition relay

- check ECM signal to igniters

Other possible trouble areas - MAF is dirty or faulty (cause excessively lean or rich injection - may be too much for ignition system) or the ECT sensor is faulty - if reads low, tricks ECM in thinking the engine is still too cold, runs rich until it warms up.

Could be anything from a bad coil pack, bad camshaft/crankshft position sensor, ECM failure, shorted wiring somewhere, ground loops or poor electrical connection. I forgot what pins to test on the coil pack - I've have to look those up later. Same with the ECM - you can backprobe the [ins on the ECM to see if it is generating the signal and providing good voltage to the coil packs. My feeling is it is wiring related - since your getting intermittent results for testing with a spark. Wiring issues are a pain, but not seriously expensive. Hopefully not an ECM issue.

As far as ordering parts - online dealerships, like www.1sttoyotaparts.com is well recieved here (physical dealership - OEM parts). Rockauto is also a good place to check out - stocks both aftermarket and OEM parts - good pricing on components.

Phil you said you cleaned the MAF, what did you use? If you use anything that has silicone it will cause problems. I'd recommend a dedicated MAF cleaner, I use CRC MAF cleaner.

Fish is right about checking plug gap. I bought the proper ngk's which were supposed to be gapped at .44 but only one was to where I had to adjust the rest. One was even gapped down to .36, and be careful when adjusting them btw because the irridium can break pretty easy. 

Phil you said you cleaned the MAF, what did you use? If you use anything that has silicone it will cause problems. I'd recommend a dedicated MAF cleaner, I use CRC MAF cleaner.

Fish is right about checking plug gap. I bought the proper ngk's which were supposed to be gapped at .44 but only one was to where I had to adjust the rest. One was even gapped down to .36, and be careful when adjusting them btw because the irridium can break pretty easy.

 

Thanks all.

I used a dedicated electronics cleaner, (picked up a can from out I and E guys here at the Refinery,non chlorinated). That was after my intial problems.

I agree it is strange to see the spark on the first coil pack, but not the others. I was working quickly, so I may try again tonite. I am convinced that #4 coilpack is dead. I may pick a new one, and troubleshoot each wiring harness to rule out other items. I did find several on Ebay, from users with good feedback. They are used, but from low milage vehicles,@ 24 dollars each.

For $24 a coil, not bad at all. Solid state parts - chances of something being bad on them is remote. I picked up a single coil pack from a member on a Toyota forum for $25 - a hookup from a car that had 60K miles on it - the coil checked out perfectly fine. Rockauto has them as low as $50-$60 - dealership wants about $125 a piece. I agree, if anything, atleast to get another part in there to help diagnose what is going on.

For $24 a coil, not bad at all. Solid state parts - chances of something being bad on them is remote. I picked up a single coil pack from a member on a Toyota forum for $25 - a hookup from a car that had 60K miles on it - the coil checked out perfectly fine. Rockauto has them as low as $50-$60 - dealership wants about $125 a piece. I agree, if anything, atleast to get another part in there to help diagnose what is going on.

 

Yep, I am just ready to get it back on the road. It is so much easier to drive daily than my Subaru.

Well, I swapped in a new coil to #4 and still have the 0304 code once I drive around the block. The rough idle is there from the start, like it firing on three cylinders. It is noisy as well, with almost a ticking sound. I may try some new plugs before moving on, as I had to drive home when this happened originally, and may have destroyed the plugs. They don't look so good, as if the tips are ruined.

After this, I guess I will move on to other items.

How can I clean the IAC as mentioned above?

The IAC is on the bottom of the throttle body - there are electrical contacts that you can check out with a multimeter to see if it is having problems. Have to be a little careful with it - more than a few people have cooked the IAC valve by cleaning it by hand.

A bad MAF sensor could also cause the car to run pretty badly, same with a huge vacuum leak. Hopefully it is something electrical (wiring wise) - can be tough to diagnose, but usually easy to fix. If it is mechanical - though generally easier to diagnose, lots of downtime to break into the engine to check things out.

The IAC is on the bottom of the throttle body - there are electrical contacts that you can check out with a multimeter to see if it is having problems. Have to be a little careful with it - more than a few people have cooked the IAC valve by cleaning it by hand.

A bad MAF sensor could also cause the car to run pretty badly, same with a huge vacuum leak. Hopefully it is something electrical (wiring wise) - can be tough to diagnose, but usually easy to fix. If it is mechanical - though generally easier to diagnose, lots of downtime to break into the engine to check things out.

 

Thanks. I am going to use a mechanics stethoscope (sp) to listen to the injector on # 4. From there, I may do a compression check to make sure I do not waste any more money going forward. If it is within range, I will move to the o2 sensors and cat.

Well, before I spent any more (besides a new coil pack), I went ahead and did a compression test myself. Number 4 is dead, as in zero. 1 was 170, 2 was 160, 3 was 180. I think I will sell the car, and try to at least get 1500 bucks out of it. It has 135k miles on it, and everything else works great.

Thanks for all of the help.

JP

Ouch! Sounds like the valve is burned or got sucked in for that cylinder. Did you try shooting in some oil and seeing if the number changes? The others are OK - compression test is spec'd to be 218PSI, minimum prssure is 145PSI with a maximum variance of 15PSI between cylinders.

Oh well - good luck on selling the car, even with a dead cylinder - I don't think you'd have any problems selling it and getting what you want from it.



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