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By 112263, March 7, 2007

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At my local dealership they keep a 1969 Corolla. It is tiny. About half the size of a modern Corolla.

Although we talk about the various generations of Corolla as if they were all the same car, they really aren't. Same name, totally different car. The original Corolla was a small, no frills, econobox with a tiny engine. The new Corolla is a mid size car which comes with leather seats and a sunroof and many other luxuries.

The real successor to the '69 Corollas is the Yaris, not the Corolla. Much more comparble in size and features.

Therefore my conclusion:

- the modern Corolla is the **** child of the Camry from 20 years ago - very similar in size!

- the Yaris is the **** child of the first Corollas.

All this business of names and badging is just PR. The reality is that they are all different cars from one generation from the next.

Who's your daddy?

Bikeman982

Cars change with technological advances and the laws dictate.

In 1969 things were a little different.

Today people expect some comfort and frills.

If you look at the overall size and content of the vehicle - I would totally agree. But also think about how these vehicles evolved over the generations - it would be a matter of time before their content and size would crossover another model. They have to make the vehicle fit the target audience at hand at that time.

Bikeman982

I had both a Camry and a Corolla and I think the Camry was heavier and also a higher level model than the Corolla of the same year.

The Yaris seems to be a lot smaller than the Corolla or the Camry.

I will stick to the Corolla because it is more of what I desire in a car - size and economy.

Some people will choose the Yaris, because it has what they want.

  • 1,424 posts
All this business of names and badging is just PR. The reality is that they are all different cars from one generation from the next.

Not really, they all serve the same purpose.

A Corolla has always been an economy car (for its time in history). It's just that what "economy car" means has evolved. I expect more out of my 2005 Corolla than out of the Mazda 626 my parents had when I was a little kid.

Cars that have really undergone PR badging are cars like the Dodge Charger. That car goes from a take no names muscle car to a 4 door family sedan?

Another example I can think of, the Thunderbird. It was a 2 seat Corvette killer, a family man's coupe or convertible, a 4 door sedan, a land yacht pimp-mobile, a aero bird, a boulevard cruiser, and then a retroesque niche vehicle that no one under 70 would drive.

GM also PR Badged. Think about oh, lets say the Pontiac LeMans. That car was a GM A body that was a semi-Muscle car, and the original platform for testing out the idea of a GTO (which was a trim of the LeMans that was of course performance oriented). When they brought that car back in the 1980s it was a little Daewoo made econobox, which was really just an Opel Kadett. What is at all similar about the Original LeMans and the 1998 model?

At least we can say the Corolla has always represented the best of what economy cars had to offer. Sure the various editions are vastly different equipment and size wise, but the same can be said of the Corvette. The new Corvette is huge compared to the first Corvette, and it is replete with so many features, while the first Corvette had plastic side windows and no outside door handles. That first Corvette is just as much a Corvette as the Corvette of today because they still serve the same purpose. The same can be said for the Corolla.

Well said 99counter.

Its a bit more complicated than just "**** children". The Yaris sedan, in terms of exterior dimensions, is still larger than my 8th gen Corolla. I agree with you 112263 that cars have grown way beyond what they first were intended and I don't like that. You may remember a topic I started several months ago called "Bigger is better...why?".

The reason why its more complicated that sheer size is because the movement towards bigger has more to do with the auto industry as a whole, not just Toyota. Take a broad look at the Toyota lineup from the 1980s. You basically had the Tercel (sub-compact), the Corolla (compact), and the Camry (mid-sized) which carried the bulk of the market for Toyota. All 3 of these cars were marketed towards 1 thing, economy. All 3 were basically the same boxy, unstylish car in slightly different sizes. People didn't buy a Camry in the 1980s to be powerful or sporty; they bought it because they were sick of gas-guzzling Ford Thunderbirds and Buick Electras, but wanted something not as cramped as a Tercel. That is why the Camry used to only come in a 4 cylinder platform.

As time went on, Americans began to care less about fuel economy and more about size and power (the reason for the SUV explosion of the late 90s). You compare the definition of compact today to what is was 20 years ago and its not the same. That is why Toyota began building the cars larger, and offering them in more powerful formats that are actually less fuel efficient than before. When the 2003 Corolla came out, which is bigger than ever, it got less MPG than the 2002.

2002 Corolla = 32/41 MPG or 30/39 (automatic)

2003 Corolla = 32/40 MPG or 29/38 (automatic)

Only now after 5 years has the 9th gen Corolla caught up in fuel efficiency to the 2002 model. Also, look at the new 2007 Camry. One of my professors drives a Camry XLE. The thing is absolutely beautiful looking with a bright red exterior, chrome trim, V6, sunroof, and all the things to go with it. That is nothing like the Camry 20 years ago. The Camry has evolved based on how the market (particularly the American market) has deemed it to. The 1st gen Camry was never offered in a V6 format. Compare a 1987 4 cyl Camry to either new Camry and its more fuel efficient.

1987 Camry = 27/34 MPG

2007 Camry = 24/34 MPG

2007 Camry V6 = 22/31 MPG

All my figures are not false. All were taken from http://www.fueleconomy.gov

Must be a misprint on the site - as far as I remember, the 9th gen always had better fuel economy than the 8th gen Corollas. I'm positive on my window sticker on my 2002 Corolla - EPA figures were 28/36 for the automatic transmission model (4-speed), the three speeds lost some on the highway. The manuals at that time were just a hair better on city/highway (31/38). I'll have to dig it up, somewhere around the house. The figures on the 2003 Corolla are spot on, though.

Here is the evolution of the 8th gen epa rating for automatic:

1998 and 1999 = 28/36 4-speed

1998 and 1999 = 28/33 3-speed

2000 = 29/37 4-speed

2000 = 28/32 3-speed

2001 and 2002 = 30/39 4-speed

2001 and 2002 = 29/33 3-speed

Trust me your 2002 gets much better mpg than my 98', unless you're driving a 3-speed. The introduction of vvt-i in 2000 contributed to the rapid improvement. Much of that improvement was lost in the 2003 redesign because the the engine had to be improved to handle the extra 150 lbs the 9th gen Corollas gained. I'm not sure of the drag coefficient between 8th gen and 9th gen, but that also might have contributed to the loss as well.

Its a bit more complicated than just "**** children". The Yaris sedan, in terms of exterior dimensions, is still larger than my 8th gen Corolla. I agree with you 112263 that cars have grown way beyond what they first were intended and I don't like that. You may remember a topic I started several months ago called "Bigger is better...why?".

The reason why its more complicated that sheer size is because the movement towards bigger has more to do with the auto industry as a whole, not just Toyota. Take a broad look at the Toyota lineup from the 1980s. You basically had the Tercel (sub-compact), the Corolla (compact), and the Camry (mid-sized) which carried the bulk of the market for Toyota. All 3 of these cars were marketed towards 1 thing, economy. All 3 were basically the same boxy, unstylish car in slightly different sizes. People didn't buy a Camry in the 1980s to be powerful or sporty; they bought it because they were sick of gas-guzzling Ford Thunderbirds and Buick Electras, but wanted something not as cramped as a Tercel. That is why the Camry used to only come in a 4 cylinder platform.

As time went on, Americans began to care less about fuel economy and more about size and power (the reason for the SUV explosion of the late 90s). You compare the definition of compact today to what is was 20 years ago and its not the same. That is why Toyota began building the cars larger, and offering them in more powerful formats that are actually less fuel efficient than before. When the 2003 Corolla came out, which is bigger than ever, it got less MPG than the 2002.

2002 Corolla = 32/41 MPG or 30/39 (automatic)

2003 Corolla = 32/40 MPG or 29/38 (automatic)

Only now after 5 years has the 9th gen Corolla caught up in fuel efficiency to the 2002 model. Also, look at the new 2007 Camry. One of my professors drives a Camry XLE. The thing is absolutely beautiful looking with a bright red exterior, chrome trim, V6, sunroof, and all the things to go with it. That is nothing like the Camry 20 years ago. The Camry has evolved based on how the market (particularly the American market) has deemed it to. The 1st gen Camry was never offered in a V6 format. Compare a 1987 4 cyl Camry to either new Camry and its more fuel efficient.

1987 Camry = 27/34 MPG

2007 Camry = 24/34 MPG

2007 Camry V6 = 22/31 MPG

All my figures are not false. All were taken from http://www.fueleconomy.gov

 

Why must you guys (all post like this, not just this one) insist that any one person knows why people buy a Toyota? This is one persons view, a opinion, and not fact.

People have many reasons for buying a Toyota over a American car and it isn't always just fuel economy. We got a Toyota mainly because of how the car holds value. I didn't want to loose 5 grand from driving the car off the lot. Post like this are getting old, and some of the corolla/toyota owners could get off of a high horse. It's just a freaken car.

The 87' auto got 25city31hwy with a 2.0

A 07' auto is rated at 24city and 33hwy with the 2.4

07 manual is rated at 24city and 34hwy with the 2.4

A larger car and larger engine with almost the same fuel economy is much more efferent. Also, if Toyota kept making cars like they used to, they would go under. It's not just American's wanting all the extra's in cars. Automakers are in a very huge rush to be the first to add something nice and new to a car. If Toyota wasn't proactive about it, they would fade away quickly.

K_Watson

Those numbers mean nothing unless they are REAL WORLD numbers. The method(s) through which the EPA determines the MPG ratings has changed over the years. The only true way to compare the numbers is to compare the real world MPG of a then brand new Corolla with the real world MPG of today's brand new Corolla, not their respective EPA ratings.

Those numbers mean nothing unless they are REAL WORLD numbers. The method(s) through which the EPA determines the MPG ratings has changed over the years. The only true way to compare the numbers is to compare the real world MPG of a then brand new Corolla with the real world MPG of today's brand new Corolla, not their respective EPA ratings.

I'll agree that they aren't real world numbers, but unless the test just changed, they still test hwy fuel economy at 55MPH. Many people complain that the test are too dated and useless, but the current test is probably not much different if any different then a 80s test.

Bikeman982

To me, a couple of MPG diference is not so significant.

I think anything above 30 MPG is good.

The only thing that matters is how big the gas tank is, how much the gas costs at the pump, how many miles before all the gas in the tank disappears. I think they should put larger fuel tanks on the cars, that way I would not have to refuel as frequently.

Guest gobucks07

At my local dealership they keep a 1969 Corolla. It is tiny. About half the size of a modern Corolla.

Although we talk about the various generations of Corolla as if they were all the same car, they really aren't. Same name, totally different car. The original Corolla was a small, no frills, econobox with a tiny engine. The new Corolla is a mid size car which comes with leather seats and a sunroof and many other luxuries.

The real successor to the '69 Corollas is the Yaris, not the Corolla. Much more comparble in size and features.

Therefore my conclusion:

- the modern Corolla is the **** child of the Camry from 20 years ago - very similar in size!

- the Yaris is the **** child of the first Corollas.

All this business of names and badging is just PR. The reality is that they are all different cars from one generation from the next.

Who's your daddy?

Does this also mean that the current Camry is the **** child of the Cressida from 20 years ago?

At my local dealership they keep a 1969 Corolla. It is tiny. About half the size of a modern Corolla.

Although we talk about the various generations of Corolla as if they were all the same car, they really aren't. Same name, totally different car. The original Corolla was a small, no frills, econobox with a tiny engine. The new Corolla is a mid size car which comes with leather seats and a sunroof and many other luxuries.

The real successor to the '69 Corollas is the Yaris, not the Corolla. Much more comparble in size and features.

Therefore my conclusion:

- the modern Corolla is the **** child of the Camry from 20 years ago - very similar in size!

- the Yaris is the **** child of the first Corollas.

All this business of names and badging is just PR. The reality is that they are all different cars from one generation from the next.

Who's your daddy?

Does this also mean that the current Camry is the **** child of the Cressida from 20 years ago?

Ahh, the cressida. My 1982 with I6 engine was un-killable. Believe me, I really tried to make that b*tch die. She had almost 200,000 miles when I got it, and was approaching 300,000 when I gave her away. She survived two breakins and one tranny rebuild. She ran low on oil all the time. She barely passed emissions in the Atlanta area. When I bought her, the previous owners told me the A/C system needed to be completely replaced, which I refused to spend the money on. (I forgot to tell the people I gave it to, and they had it recharged for $80 and are still enjoying the cold A/C.) She drove like a boat and felt as massive as a tank. I hated that car. There wasn't a single thing I liked about it.

Damn I miss it. default_sad Damned if I know why.

Oh yeah, my parents have a 2007 camry. Much much roomier inside than the 1982 cressida ever was.

jim

You miss it the same reason people miss their old BMW 7 series from the 1980s. The Cressida actually looks alot like one of them. My friend with the Audi A4 used to drive a 1985 735i. Now that thing was definately a tank. I used to joke that it was the German's civilian version of the Panzer. It was slow as f*ck, had 260k miles on it, and the engine sounded like truck (smelled like one too), but it was definately fun to drive.

By the way, the reason your parents' 07' Camry is roomer is because its much larger than the 2nd gen Cressida. The new Camry's are about 5 inches wider, 4 inches taller, and 2 inches longer (with a 5 inch longer wheelbase). Also most of the Cressida's length was wasted on trunk space. Its kind of funny when you think about it, since the Cressida used to be Toyota's Full-sized car.

Bikeman982

You miss it the same reason people miss their old BMW 7 series from the 1980s. The Cressida actually looks alot like one of them. My friend with the Audi A4 used to drive a 1985 735i. Now that thing was definately a tank. I used to joke that it was the German's civilian version of the Panzer. It was slow as f*ck, had 260k miles on it, and the engine sounded like truck (smelled like one too), but it was definately fun to drive.

By the way, the reason your parents' 07' Camry is roomer is because its much larger than the 2nd gen Cressida. The new Camry's are about 5 inches wider, 4 inches taller, and 2 inches longer (with a 5 inch longer wheelbase). Also most of the Cressida's length was wasted on trunk space. Its kind of funny when you think about it, since the Cressida used to be Toyota's Full-sized car.

Sometimes a car will kind of "grow on you", meaning you get sentimentally attached to it. Older cars seem to invoke that kind of reaction, even though more modern cars may be superior in every way.

 

 

Yaris didn't impress me at all.

Once you add back what's missing and is standard on Corolla, you might be paying more for Yaris.

Yaris didn't impress me at all.

 

Once you add back what's missing and is standard on Corolla, you might be paying more for Yaris.

[/quote

Hey all,

The Yaris gets great gas mileage and has a excellent powertrain, but that's where it all ends. The goofy, sci-fi looks of the hatchback and the center-mounted gauge cluster just subtracts from the overall equation.

I agree with Bob Levine on this. You'd be better off getting a stripped down Corolla CE than a fairly loaded Yaris.

Just when you thought that Toyota couldn't make a car look stranger than an Echo, they come out with this.

Personally, I think they would have been better off bringing back the old Tercel. It was bland and boring, but, relatively unoffensive to the eyes!!!

My apologies to any Echo/Yaris owners out there!!! It's just one guy's opinion, that's all!!!

timkedz

Yaris didn't impress me at all.

Once you add back what's missing and is standard on Corolla, you might be paying more for Yaris.

[/quote

Hey all,

The Yaris gets great gas mileage and has a excellent powertrain, but that's where it all ends. The goofy, sci-fi looks of the hatchback and the center-mounted gauge cluster just subtracts from the overall equation.

I agree with Bob Levine on this. You'd be better off getting a stripped down Corolla CE than a fairly loaded Yaris.

Just when you thought that Toyota couldn't make a car look stranger than an Echo, they come out with this.

Personally, I think they would have been better off bringing back the old Tercel. It was bland and boring, but, relatively unoffensive to the eyes!!!

My apologies to any Echo/Yaris owners out there!!! It's just one guy's opinion, that's all!!!

timkedz

 

I disagree. I think that the Yaris looks good. Look at the competition. The Honda Fit is ugly. So is the Nissan versa, the Chevy Aveo, and almost all the other subcompacts. I think that Toyota is going to dominate this sector on looks alone. I mean what was Honda thinking - that thing is hideous. It is probably a good car as it is a Honda but I couldn't stomach it every day.

I thought of trying to come up with something inteligent to say... but nothing...

Apparently, my father got one recently (he doesnt' care what it is, as long as it gets him from a ? default_cool. I havent been out to see him so i have no idea how it rides.

Today, I just saw a Yaris on the street on my way to lunch. Damn its ugly... and looks smaller than a Tercel.

Who drives a Yaris? Other than my dad, no idea. For me its WAY too small.

As for the spin-off child thing...

Gotta remember that all cars have grown. The new Mini is small, but compared to the original Mini from the 60s, its a tank.

My friend had a 80 Honda accord. I think its smaller than the current civics.

So, my "semi-intelligent" question is: What happened to the Tercel?

tdk

I thought of trying to come up with something inteligent to say... but nothing...

Apparently, my father got one recently (he doesnt' care what it is, as long as it gets him from a ? default_cool. I havent been out to see him so i have no idea how it rides.

Today, I just saw a Yaris on the street on my way to lunch. Damn its ugly... and looks smaller than a Tercel.

Who drives a Yaris? Other than my dad, no idea. For me its WAY too small.

As for the spin-off child thing...

Gotta remember that all cars have grown. The new Mini is small, but compared to the original Mini from the 60s, its a tank.

My friend had a 80 Honda accord. I think its smaller than the current civics.

So, my "semi-intelligent" question is: What happened to the Tercel?

tdk

 

The only criticism of the Tercel I ever heard was that it wasn't safe in collisions - which is probably true of all small cars. I think that it was a very sound vehicle in all other respects. Toyota replaced it for marketing reasons - the appearance was a bit tired. They tried the Echo and that wasn't too successfu - it looked weird but it was a good car - and the Yaris is a tweaking of the Echo. It is all based on marketing. MOst people buy cars based on marketing not on rational criterea.

Bikeman982

My daughter drives the Tercel and I have been trying to convert her to a Corolla.

Right now her CEL is on and I have to figure out why.

I thought of trying to come up with something inteligent to say... but nothing...

Apparently, my father got one recently (he doesnt' care what it is, as long as it gets him from a ? default_cool. I havent been out to see him so i have no idea how it rides.

Today, I just saw a Yaris on the street on my way to lunch. Damn its ugly... and looks smaller than a Tercel.

Who drives a Yaris? Other than my dad, no idea. For me its WAY too small.

As for the spin-off child thing...

Gotta remember that all cars have grown. The new Mini is small, but compared to the original Mini from the 60s, its a tank.

My friend had a 80 Honda accord. I think its smaller than the current civics.

So, my "semi-intelligent" question is: What happened to the Tercel?

tdk

Tercel-> Echo -> Yaris

 

3 different cars all within just an 8 year span. That's not good. Alot of the time a car gets renamed is because its precedessor went down the tube. Just look at the new Ford Fusion. A decent car, nothing spectacular, but not many consumers realize its the successor that dismal failure called the Taurus. If Ford kept the Taurus name for the Fusion, they might as well have just closed another plant. The Tercel was decent, but its sales were slumping by the end since people were going more towards the larger (and better looking) Corollas. Toyota tried the "Echo", another failed attempt at a sporty little car. My guess is that the Yaris isn't going to succeed any more than the Fit or the Versa. I wouldn't say the Yaris is "WAY too small". After all, its larger in dimensions than my 8th gen Corolla, but subcompact cars have just gone out of style in America.

K_Watson

Ford's bringing the Taurus back. They are renaming the Five Hundred to Taurus.



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