I've been reading so many horror stories about engines sludging up.

I couldnt take it any more.

Removed the valve cover on my 98 corolla,just over 110,000 miles guess what i saw? nuttin clear as a bell.. phewwww!!! this car is driven every day. sometimes only a couple miles,sometimes several hundred miles a day. i am a former mechanic and i have seen the toll failure to change oil does to a motor i have been using mobile one oil 5-w-30 in summertime.0-w-30 in wintertime. this car sits outside in winter in the u.p. of michigan many mornings -35 F are common and i have never had a problem,and get this,the original battery!!!!!!

my oil change intervals are in summer,5,000 miles and winter, 2,500-3,000 miles in my world i figure hey, oil is cheap i use fram filters or on occAssion, i'll use a oem filter. i have seen many wierd things happen to engines. and i'll bet you a nice cold can of suds 95% were caused by inadequate service or abuse. i'll shut up now, but in closing,if you dont do anything else to your automobile at least change your oil!!! thankyou

I've been reading so many horror stories about engines sludging up.I couldnt take it any more.

 

Removed the valve cover on my 98 corolla,just over 110,000 miles guess what i saw? nuttin clear as a bell.. phewwww!!! this car is driven every day. sometimes only a couple miles,sometimes several hundred miles a day. i am a former mechanic and i have seen the toll failure to change oil does to a motor i have been using mobile one oil 5-w-30 in summertime.0-w-30 in wintertime. this car sits outside in winter in the u.p. of michigan many mornings -35 F are common and i have never had a problem,and get this,the original battery!!!!!!

my oil change intervals are in summer,5,000 miles and winter, 2,500-3,000 miles in my world i figure hey, oil is cheap i use fram filters or on occAssion, i'll use a oem filter. i have seen many wierd things happen to engines. and i'll bet you a nice cold can of suds 95% were caused by inadequate service or abuse. i'll shut up now, but in closing,if you dont do anything else to your automobile at least change your oil!!! thankyou

Correction to the above.

Owners who were affected by sludge were the ones who didn't bother changing oil. They assumed their Camry or their Sienna was above such mundane concerns.

There has yet to be one documented case of a sludge event where proper oil changes were done. There have been lots and lots of stories saying "I maintained my car religiously", but no confirmation of any of them. As far as I'm concerned, such stories are just excuses of convenience.

Correction to the above.

 

Owners who were affected by sludge were the ones who didn't bother changing oil. They assumed their Camry or their Sienna was above such mundane concerns.

There has yet to be one documented case of a sludge event where proper oil changes were done. There have been lots and lots of stories saying "I maintained my car religiously", but no confirmation of any of them. As far as I'm concerned, such stories are just excuses of convenience.

I guess you are not aware that Toyota was confronted with sludge issues in cars with documented maintenance and had to make production changes to certain 4 and 6 cylinder engines and issue special extended "sludge" warranty to re****ure anxious Toyota owners dumping Camrys and Siennas.

I guess that you are also unaware that other modern car makers also have problems with sludge (VW/Audi most recent "sludge" campain and extended sludge warranty).

Cheers

I am fully aware of by far the most prevailent reasons for sludge development in auto engines. Contrary to efforts by some to reinvent the laws of physics (not to mention contradict what the vast majority of engineers and service technicians know and almost universally agree upon), sludge development is a direct result of neglecting proper maintenance.

I've spent a lifetime in the engine repair/rebuild business. I've never seen a case of sludge resulting from anything other than neglect, regardless of make.

The Toyota situation is no different. The exception in Toyota's case was that efforts by a few internet manipulators to blow the situation way out of proportion resulted in a proactive move to ****ure owners they would be covered if sludge occurred, regardless.

The sludge issue is, in my opinion, nothing but an example of how the internet can be used by a few less than scrupulous individuals looking for a scapegoat for their mistakes.

98corolla, I don't think the sludge problem has been as prevalent in the Corolla as in the other models. It is the Sienna, Highlander, Camry, Solara, Celica and Avalon that have the Sludge Policy. Also Lexus RX and ES300s. The years covered vary by model, but generally 1997 - 2001 (4-cyl) or 2002 (6 cyl). I don't think Toyota significantly changed the engine design on the V-6 until 2004, so for what its worth, the 2003's are probably susceptible, too. (4 cyl. engine redesigned with 2002 models). That said, I have heard of sludge in Corollas and have seen it reported on this site. There will certainly be cases where the owners were negiligent in their maintenance and are at fault, but this was not the case with many of the Sludge Policy models.

"There will certainly be cases where the owners were negiligent in their maintenance and are at fault, but this was not the case with many of the Sludge Policy models."

I maintain that most, if not all, cases of engine sludge are due to improper maintenance, not, as implied by the above statement that "this was not the case with 'many' of the sludge policy models".

This wildly irresponsible speculation is typical of what's wrong with controversy surrounding the sludge issue.

How does this poster know "this was not the case with 'many' of the sludge policy models"?? Does the poster have some sort of verifiable data to support this contention? Can the poster show how this speculative conclusion was arrived at? How 'many' owners with sludge policy models have ever shown concrete evidence of their claims?

I doubt very much that the poster can truthfully respond to these kinds of questions!

It's exactly this kind of misleading hype that's given rise to so much attention to the issue over the past year or so.

As I said earlier, we have yet to see any form of documented proof--anywhere-- that a properly maintained engine developed a sludge problem.

In all my 38 years in the automotive repair business, I have never seen a case of sludge that wasn't due to poor maintenance.

I simply do not accept stories being circulated by some that properly maintained engines have developed sludge. Every one of these stories is conspicuous by the lack of factual verification shown with them. The majority are simply are third and fourth hand anecdotes which one can find repeated at many sites around the net.

There is just too much of what appears to be very deliberate efforts by some to make the issue 'appear' to be something that it is not.

I would also like to have posters like the above accurately describe (and verify) what 'significant changes' were made to the V-6 engine as suggested. To my knowledge, only minor 'running changes' (basically, routine ongoing improvements) have been made to the V6 engine in the past 4 or 5 years. Is this yet another example of misleading or misunderstood information being tossed around indiscriminately for what appears to be propaganda value only?

Does the Sienna have the same engine as the other models? The hype on the new Sienna sure makes it sound like it is an "all-new" engine, which translates to "pretty darn significant".

http://www.autofan.com/newsdetail.asp?id=230&mn=2&yr=2003

The new Sienna will deliver a substantial boost in power, fuel-efficiency, and refinement, thanks to an all-new 230-horsepower V6 engine and an all-new five-speed automatic transmission. Both the engine and the transmission will be built at Toyota Motor Manufacturing, West Virginia's powertrain production facility.

During internal testing, the compact and lightweight powertrain was capable of launching Sienna from zero-to-60 in 8.3 seconds. At 27 miles-per-gallon Sienna will have one of the highest highway mileage ratings in its class. The powertrain will be certified as a Level II Ultra-Low Emission Vehicle (ULEV-II).

Here is another promo piece:

http://www.hispanianews.com/archive/2004/07/08/08.htm

More Powerful, More Efficient

The Sienna delivers a substantial boost in power, fuel-efficiency, and refinement, thanks to an all-new V6 engine and an all-new five-speed automatic transmission. Both the engine and the transmission are Assembled at the Toyota Motor Manufacturing powertrain production facility in West Virginia.

The new 3.3-liter V6 with variable valve timing with intelligence (VVT-i) delivers 230-horsepower at 5,600 RPM and 242 lb.-ft. of torque at 3,600 RPM. The Sienna provides more confident merging and pAssing power than before, and is capable of zero-to-60 acceleration in about 8.3 seconds. Fuel economy is improved with EPA city/highway gas mileage estimates of 19/27 for front-wheel-drive models and 18/24 for all-wheel-drive models.

Variable Valve Timing wasn't introduced across the board by Toyota in 2000. Lexus and the Avalon shared this feature in 2000, but I don't believe Camry, Solara,Sienna, etc., got it until at least 2002.

Besides, it's not as 'significant' a change as it's touted to be, and certainly isn't a factor in sludge development--unless owners neglect proper maintenance in their VVT engines too!

That being said, any such implied statement that 'significant changes' were made in 2004 specifically because of the alledged sludge issue is just a lot of self serving baloney.

I would dearly love to see any sort of proof to support such a statement.

I didn't mean to imply that the engine was specifically redesigned BECAUSE of the sludge problem, but for heavens sake, I hope they addressed it! Wouldn't you expect Toyota to try to make these engines less "sludge prone" while they are in the process of modifying, "significant" or not, the engine design? I will say (and I think I can find proof) that tweaks to the engine were made in some of the 2002 models with the V-6 to make them less prone to sludge. I think I remember those words being used and it was implied that the 2002 4 cylinder already had this taken care of. I am not convinced that that the tweaking was enough to correct the problem because there are still reports on the internet of 2002 and 2003 models having sludge. I haven't yet read anything about a 2004 with the problem, but the jury is still out on those.

There are countless resources on the internet that document this problem in the Toyota engines and I am not going to rehash them here. Just do a google on Toyota Engine Sludge and the proof is there.

Back to Corollas, I really think that the problems you read about with sludge in Corollas is linked to a high oil consumption rate. The volume of oil these engines holds is so small, that it doesn't take much of a loss of oil before you have a major problem on your hands. I know most people do not think they need to regulary check the oil in a brand new Toyota, but believe me, it will be worth every minute you spend doing it if it helps to avoid engine failure down the road.

*********************

I am editing my post to add a link to the Automotive News article that talks of a design change in 2002 in response to the sludge problem. Go to http://www.autonews.com/article.cms?articleId=38921

I am fully aware of by far the most prevailent reasons for sludge development in auto engines. Contrary to efforts by some to reinvent the laws of physics (not to mention contradict what the vast majority of engineers and service technicians know and almost universally agree upon), sludge development is a direct result of neglecting proper maintenance.

 

I've spent a lifetime in the engine repair/rebuild business. I've never seen a case of sludge resulting from anything other than neglect, regardless of make.

The Toyota situation is no different. The exception in Toyota's case was that efforts by a few internet manipulators to blow the situation way out of proportion resulted in a proactive move to ****ure owners they would be covered if sludge occurred, regardless.

The sludge issue is, in my opinion, nothing but an example of how the internet can be used by a few less than scrupulous individuals looking for a scapegoat for their mistakes.

If it's a maintenance issue, then why weren't all Toyota engines/makes affected?

I'm a Toyota owner, but I don't buy into the religion.

Hypothetically speaking, what mechanical changes would be needed in an engine affected by sludge buildup? Or, to look at the issue from a different angle, what design factors contribute to sludge buildup, and how would they be corrected?

I'm having trouble imagining why one reasonably maintained, reasonably modern engine design using reasonably modern oil would supposedly have trouble with sludge and another would not.

The only things I can think of would be related to higher engine temperatures and/or oil passages or oil pump mechanisms that are somehow more or less susceptible to clogging. You could even hypothesize a large tempurature difference inside one certain area the engine that leads to greater sludge deposits in the "cold" area, but that's probably a little exotic.

I will say the only sludging problem I've seen and touched personally was in a four cylinder '98 Camry. The owner claimed that he changed the oil regularly, and even produced "receipts" for oil and filters. The owner was first alerted to a problem by loud clattering from the engine, and found that the oil didn't even show on the dipstick -- he had to add three quarts.

However, upon inspection, the filter had been installed by a quick-change place over 28 months and 30,000 miles ago -- the quick-change shop wrote the date, mileage, and tech's initials on the end of the filter with a marker (a different brand than on the receipts, too). They probably had gotten tired of "you broke my engine" claims, too. The thick layer of road grime on the filter proved that it hadn't been touched in recent memory. BUSTED!

The sludge claim was denied, in case you were wondering.

Not that this story proves anything one way or another, but it was pretty entertaining. It was sad to hear that poor Camry try to run. He drove it in and drove it away - it's a tough engine.

The above Ellis response sounds more like a stereotypical excerpt from the sludgemonger's 'tactics manual' than a reasoned and factual statement. For that reason I'm not going to waste time and bandwidth continuing to debate what is essentially propaganda on this issue. I'm completely satisfied from my own experience and that of a great many contacts in the business what the most common cause of sludge is, and I've yet to see any concrete evidence to the contrary.

As far as I'm concerned, the root cause boils down to a lack of proper and timely maintenance for the most part. Those who insist there's some mysterious and undefined 'flaw' in what is beyond any doubt a very good engine, are merely looking for a convenient scapegoat.

Re the Gramparsons question-- please don't misrepresent my statements to justify your opinions . I said nothing about people being 'disposed' to any such thing. I very clearly stated that I have never seen a sludged engine that wasn't that way because of improper maintenance. I also very clearly stated that there has never been any concrete evidence shown--anywhere-- to support the claim that a properly maintained engine developed sludge. Finally, I referred to a 'few' individuals, not 'all Toyota owners' in stating that the sludge issue is, in my opinion, nothing but an example of how the internet can be used by a few less than scrupulous individuals looking for a scapegoat for their mistakes. What's so difficult to understand about these statements??

"Sludgemongers tactics manual"? I have no idea what you are talking about. Maybe it is best that we do not talk to each other further, Veritas. Before that though, do you think man really walked on the moon, or was that just a conspiracy, too?

bwringer, Regarding the high engine temperature theory, excellent theory. It is mentioned in the Automotive News article in the above link and I have seen it repeated by a number of experts familiar with the problem.

Who said anything about a conspiracy? I simply stated that your remarks came across sounding just like typical sludgemonger's propaganda. Based on your response Ellis, I'll take it that you are one of them and your job is to keep the issue out front and center at this forum.

Also,whether you agree with it or not, my 38 years in the business of repairing/rebuilding engines, plus certification as a Master Technician, plus long standing AERA member, plus having seen more sludged engines that you can count, qualify me as an expert too. As such, my statement about never having seen a case of sludge that wasn't due to negligence is valid, as is my contention that there has never been any concrete evidence anywhere to the contrary.

This sludge issue may or may not be what you slyly infer that I called a conspiracy--I can't say--but it sure as heck looks like very deliberate efforts to make it look like it's something it isn't.

Here's a little background info on how Toyota handled the issue.

Toyota expands term of sludge payment policy, relaxes restrictionsPublished Date: 4/4/02

 

Toyota Motor Sales U.S.A. Inc. on Wednesday said it will cover customers' costs Associated with engine sludge problems in some Toyota and Lexus vehicles - regardless of whether owners show evidence of maintenance - for eight years from the date of first sale or lease.

The new policy is a sharp departure from the action Toyota took in February, when it told owners it would pay repair costs for sludge damage for one year in cases where customers could provide proof of "reasonable efforts" to maintain their vehicles.

The automaker insists the problem is caused by poor vehicle maintenance.

Sludge buildup in engines is the result of engine oil oxidizing and turning into a gel-like substance. The buildup could prompt vehicle owners to replace their engines. The problem could affect 3.3 million Toyota and Lexus owners.

The customer satisfaction program announced Wednesday calls for Toyota to pay for repair costs and expenses such as car rental and other out-of-pocket expenses that customers have paid or could incur as a result of damage from the engine sludge problem.

The program is for 1997 through 2002 Toyota and Lexus vehicles with 3.0-liter, V-6, or 2.2-liter four-cylinder engines. There is no mileage limitation.

Vehicles with those engines include the Camry sedan and RX300 sport-utility vehicle.

Contrast Toyota's approach to VW of America, which is currently facing the sludge issue with its passats and Audi A4s. VW only covers costs if the owner shows evidence of adhering to the proper maintenance schedule.

Ghost, what is the reference for your quote? I am aware that Toyota has been requiring proof of maintenance prior to authorizing repairs and I know of someone turned down for repairs because they changed their own oil. They could prove that they purchased the oil and filters through receipts but could not prove when they actually changed the oil.

I providing another link to a report about the non-existant engine sludge problem

http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/2002/0...yota-sludge.htm

Dave --

A friend of mine who is a Firestone technician says he mostly sees the problem in the Sienna (could be regional?). He thinks it is heat related, but more in regards to the location/placement of the engine than the engine itself. But he did say auto manufacturers increase the running temperature to meet emission standards, so it could all be part of the equation.

DB

Dave --

A friend of mine who is a Firestone technician says he mostly sees the problem in the Sienna (could be regional?). He thinks it is heat related, but more in regards to the location/placement of the engine than the engine itself. But he did say auto manufacturers increase the running temperature to meet emission standards, so it could all be part of the equation.

DB

Toyota sets itself apart by attmpeitng ot meet both very high mileage as well as low emissions while still using lowest cost manufacturing techniques and electronics. Now Honda does the same thing.... but IMO- the Honda engines are a little more complex, and use better electronics... which is also why they cost more.

SO how is Toyota meeting the emissions and mileage numbers.... I belive they have done significant work on combustion chamber design, they use very long stroke motors, with relatively hgih compression and the key factor... they intentionally run the engines very hot. The hotter you can run the engine, the less heat loss you have, and the leaner you can run the mixture.

These high temperatures combined wiht low cost manufacturing techniques...menas that in some parts of the lubrication system, oil flow may not be optimal and may have dead spots... resultsing in sludge.

Cherry128 -

You are right, it has to be something Toyota has done differently from the other makes. Not only would it be a difference between Toyota and other makes as you pointed out, but between Toyota models. Why would a 2000 Camry which is covered under the engine sludge policy have this problem and not a 2000 Tacoma?

I guess it could be that the other models have the problem too, but to a lesser degree so we don't hear about it as much. I have seen reports of sludge in several models not under policy like the Corolla and Matrix.

DB

Another possibility is that these higher temp eingines NEED the fully synthetic 5W30 oil that's recommended. But epople take these cars in for servicve at a 30 minute "quick-lube" or even the Toyota dealer...and very cheap 10W30 is used.

All of these factors combined could be the cause.