What's the difference between the 8th gen 1zzfe and 9th gen 1zzfe? And can you swap out the 8th gen engine with the 9th gen engine without mods?
by twinky64, October 3, 2006
What's the difference between the 8th gen 1zzfe and 9th gen 1zzfe? And can you swap out the 8th gen engine with the 9th gen engine without mods?
The engine is very similar - but not identical. Different intake, possible different ignition system (depending on 8th gen - pre VVT-i or VVT-i system), transmission change, 32bit ECM (separte ECMs in previous gens are combined into one here), different cam design (less midrange torque for more HP), different exahust manifold, different starter (smaller).
Would be a "legal" swap - as it is a newer engine in an older chassis - but probably not worth it, unless you blew up your exisiting engine. Compared to the 8th gen with VVT-i (2000-2002, 125HP/125TQ) - the 9th gen nets you 5 extra ponies(130HP/125TQ - later 126HP/122TQ with new SAE ratings), with a little less pull in the middle.
Bottom line - it is possible, but far from a drop in type of swap. Most of the electronics and wiring is different - which for most is a nightmare to figure out - physically, the engine will fit. Will need all new plumbing and accessories may not carryover.
The engine is very similar - but not identical. Different intake, possible different ignition system (depending on 8th gen - pre VVT-i or VVT-i system), transmission change, 32bit ECM (separte ECMs in previous gens are combined into one here), different cam design (less midrange torque for more HP), different exahust manifold, different starter (smaller).I was just curious...I don't need another engine or anything. I have 199,000 miles and last calculated fuel economy was 38.18mpgWould be a "legal" swap - as it is a newer engine in an older chassis - but probably not worth it, unless you blew up your exisiting engine. Compared to the 8th gen with VVT-i (2000-2002, 125HP/125TQ) - the 9th gen nets you 5 extra ponies(130HP/125TQ - later 126HP/122TQ with new SAE ratings), with a little less pull in the middle.
Bottom line - it is possible, but far from a drop in type of swap. Most of the electronics and wiring is different - which for most is a nightmare to figure out - physically, the engine will fit. Will need all new plumbing and accessories may not carryover.
Wow that's awesome MPG..I assume you have a 5 speed?
I have AT w/OD, and never get above 33mpg.
Wow that's awesome MPG..I assume you have a 5 speed?wow, i get 35mpg highway with my 7A-FE and an AT. out of curiosity...at around 55mph im turning my enging right around 2000 rpm in OD, how about you guys with the 8th/9th gen? i remember reading that the A246E is geared higher than the A245E.I have AT w/OD, and never get above 33mpg.
From my experience - 8th gen 4 speeds are around 2000 RPMs at 60MPH. C60 6-speed on my XRS runs at 2800-3000 RPMS at 60MPH (also about the same for the U240E tranny ones, kind of rare, the 4-speed autos with the 2ZZGE engine). The A246E on Corolla/Matrix are somewhere in between, from the brief test drive that I had a while ago. Actually I thought the tranny was stuck in a gear, because of the high RPMs - but they get decent fuel economy even with the elevated revs.
the 6th gen celicas, 8th gen corolla, and i guess the 9th gen corolla all have the A246E, interesting. i wonder if they choose that trans because of the taller gearing so that 8th/9th gens dont feel so torqueless from a standing start? the A246E's 1st gear is 4:1 where as the A245E is 3:1.
Could be - but the 8th gen also used the A245E tranny like the 7th gen. I believe they have a slightly (numerically smaller/taller profile) final drive compared to the 7th gen A254E (2.8??) - my specs mentioned 2.66 as the final gear, but I'll have to double check that. I believe that mine (2002 Corolla) are:
1st - 3.6, 2nd - 2.0, 3rd - 1.3, 4th - 0.9, Final - 2.66
The 9th gen's A246E choose a much lower profile final drive and other gears because the 9th gen 1ZZ-FE were tuned with less mid-range torque for more HP up high. The 2ZZ-GE gets spanked at low revs until it gets to lift, then it surges with power.
per wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_A_transmission
A245EApplications:
* 1993-2003 Corolla
* 2003- Matrix (with VVT-i Engine)
Gear ratios: 1st - 3.643:1 2nd - 2.008:1 3rd - 1.296:1 OD - 0.892:1
Drive axle ratio (for 93-97 Corolla): 2.821
and a nice table of trans's and ratios, no FD ratio tho
http://www.vibratesoftware.com/html_help/h...sions.htm#A246E
Wow that's awesome MPG..I assume you have a 5 speed?I have AT w/OD, and never get above 33mpg.
I would like to add I own a 2003 corolla le and get 32 miles to a gallon in town and out averaged together and a 41 mpg on the highway. When the car was new I got 42 on the highway. This car has a automatic with od. I feel alot is in how the car was broken in from new and the maintenance. I drove it off the truck of delivery. I use pure mobile one synthetic oil from new with baldwin engine oil filter. also my tires are michelin harmony tires with nitrogen in them. the car presently has 89,000 miles on it and going strong.
Thank you
Wow that's awesome MPG..I assume you have a 5 speed?I have AT w/OD, and never get above 33mpg.
At 5th gear, I get 3000rpms at 80mph and 2500rpms at 65mph. Hella high revs! There should be a 6th gear to get lower revs while cruising, that should increase mileagewow, i get 35mpg highway with my 7A-FE and an AT. out of curiosity...at around 55mph im turning my enging right around 2000 rpm in OD, how about you guys with the 8th/9th gen? i remember reading that the A246E is geared higher than the A245E.Wow that's awesome MPG..I assume you have a 5 speed?
I have AT w/OD, and never get above 33mpg.
Ti-Jean
I checked on the table that Bitter posted and the ratios for 4th and 5th for the C59 manual transaxle are different than the specs I have from a 9th gen 2004 shop manual.
Bitter's table reports 0.969 and 0.815 respectively for 4th and 5th whereas my specs say 0.885 and 0.725. Final drive is 3.941.
My take is that the same transmission can have different ratios on some gears for different markets.
Australia and Europe for example have shorter gears.
twinky64:
My vehicle is an 8th gen(2000), with a 9th gen engine((2003). My awesome technician made the swap (old engine threw a rod), so I wouldn't know about the mods it would take, but I have had no problems with the new engine for the 5K miles I have put on it, even if the catalytic converter is puttin on the check engine light.
FYI: I bought the 03 engine with either 30 or 40 K miles on it. The car now has 160K.
Hope that helped answer your second question
At 5th gear, I get 3000rpms at 80mph and 2500rpms at 65mph. Hella high revs! There should be a 6th gear to get lower revs while cruising, that should increase mileage
Hmmmm... weird, I live in Venezuela, have a 2005 Corolla 5 spd. manual trans. and it turns at 3000 RPM at 60 mph!!!
around 80 mph it revs at around 4000 RPM 
I thought it had the same transmission as it has the same 1.8 engine with VVT-i
But his is an 8th gen - a 9th gen is geared differently to fit the revised powerband (9th gen gained some high-end HP and lost some low-end to midrange power). But the fuel economy is still very good at those RPMs because of the tuning. My XRS just screams on the highway - running with the flow of traffic, I usually hover around 3500-4000 RPM.
But his is an 8th gen - a 9th gen is geared differently to fit the revised powerband (9th gen gained some high-end HP and lost some low-end to midrange power). But the fuel economy is still very good at those RPMs because of the tuning. My XRS just screams on the highway - running with the flow of traffic, I usually hover around 3500-4000 RPM.At what speed? My corolla hovers at 3000 rpms at 78'ish-80'ish. Which is kinda wierd because at 6000rpms, my 98 could go nearly 160mph?!! damn.....
At what speed? My corolla hovers at 3000 rpms at 78'ish-80'ish. Which is kinda wierd because at 6000rpms, my 98 could go nearly 160mph?!! damn.....But his is an 8th gen - a 9th gen is geared differently to fit the revised powerband (9th gen gained some high-end HP and lost some low-end to midrange power). But the fuel economy is still very good at those RPMs because of the tuning. My XRS just screams on the highway - running with the flow of traffic, I usually hover around 3500-4000 RPM.
Damn is right. Come on Mr. Mechanical engineer, you and I both know that the relation between RPM and speed isn't linear. It's some terrible function that makes a TI-89 cry crocodile tears.
I don't know about the 8th generation because I never paid attention to the speedo in one, but the speedo on my '05 only goes to 110. The car goes faster, but the speedo only goes to 110. I like the Mazda approach better, speedo goes to 140 or 160, car only goes 120.
Really Mr. Mechanical Engineer? lol. Perhaps you could explain the function curve for me. lol. Perhaps you could explain to me that at 2000 rpms I travel nearly 53mph. At 1000 rpms, I travel around 25-26'ish. How about at 78-80'ish, my engine speed hovers at 3000 rpms. Perhaps I'm crazy but last I knew, I knew how to check the function between two values.At what speed? My corolla hovers at 3000 rpms at 78'ish-80'ish. Which is kinda wierd because at 6000rpms, my 98 could go nearly 160mph?!! damn.....But his is an 8th gen - a 9th gen is geared differently to fit the revised powerband (9th gen gained some high-end HP and lost some low-end to midrange power). But the fuel economy is still very good at those RPMs because of the tuning. My XRS just screams on the highway - running with the flow of traffic, I usually hover around 3500-4000 RPM.
Damn is right. Come on Mr. Mechanical engineer, you and I both know that the relation between RPM and speed isn't linear. It's some terrible function that makes a TI-89 cry crocodile tears.
I don't know about the 8th generation because I never paid attention to the speedo in one, but the speedo on my '05 only goes to 110. The car goes faster, but the speedo only goes to 110. I like the Mazda approach better, speedo goes to 140 or 160, car only goes 120.
Maybe the TI-89 might cry waterfalls, but my TI Voyage 200 is one calculator you can count on.
http://www.chief-overdrive.com/RPMvsSpeed.htm
According to them, it is linear....but then again it is a motorcycle
I'm tired, I'm going to bed now.
Why does my 1ZZFE buzz (like a bee) when under load? Is that the way it is supposed to sound, its very annoying when driving in the city as those pulses bounce off the curb and back into the car again as I have my window down (you know,---.for cool air coming in and all that fancy stuff). Its kinda embarrassing when Im next to another student who has a civic or eclipse. Red red red green (my car) buuuuuuuuuuzzzzzz...(shift)...buuuuuuzzzzz...(shift)...buuuzzzzzz. Yea, I get the looks too, and not in the cool way either. 
O yea and contour, if you were writing that the relation b/n speed and rpms isn't linear, you were probably factoring in wind resistance and not enough hp to break through that terminal velocity. But at terminal velocity, I bet you aren't at 6000rpms in 5th either. Either way, I still believe the relation is linear.
Yup - the 1ZZFE is a noisy engine. Not much you can do about that - kind of a "feature" of a DOHC design.
Yup - the 1ZZFE is a noisy engine. Not much you can do about that - kind of a "feature" of a DOHC design.
Then why are other DOHC engines deathly quiet?
I think it has more to do with that noisy VSV soleniod clicking louding and the the fact the 1ZZ has a timing chain that makes it more noisy.
not so much chain imo, because the chain is lubed. My mountain bike is deathly quiet be cause the chain is lubed.Yup - the 1ZZFE is a noisy engine. Not much you can do about that - kind of a "feature" of a DOHC design.Then why are other DOHC engines deathly quiet?
I think it has more to do with that noisy VSV soleniod clicking louding and the the fact the 1ZZ has a timing chain that makes it more noisy.
Like I mentioned - it is a feature of the 1ZZFE engine - always known to be pretty noisy. I didn't want to imply that being DOHC was the only reason - as the A series engines (4AGE for example) purrs compared to the 1ZZFE one. The older 22R (also used timing chain) wasn't even close to being as noisy as the 1ZZFE. I feel that they probably got too overzealous with weight saving and material removal that caused the engine to be noisy. Also it varys from engine to engine quite a bit - all valvetrain noise. Mine is quite compared to some others - someone who recently rebuilt his is almost silent compared to others - this engine is super sensitive to key clearances in valves and chain guides. Get them just right and the engine will be quiet, until they start to wear a bit and start clicking (though still within specs).
