Gm Problems

WOW! Very interesting topic and insightfull posts!

I must agree with Tinto and Max and would like to add my own thoughts. Although I'm Canadian, not American, people here still call the big three "domestics" and Japanese, Korean and European cars "imports"

When I bought the Corolla, I went in the dealership with the intent of buying a Echo hatchback. One of the reasons that made me go with the Corolla, besides the more car for about the same $ and the Echo hatch is too small for my growing family was the the Corolla was built in Canada (the Echo is Japaneese made).

I am a small car person (my other car is a Mazda designed, KIA built, Ford badged Festiva) and could not find any viable options in GM's or Ford's lineups. didn't think of Chrysler, due to horror stories heard about the Neon. GM's small cars are re-badged Daewoos, and the Aveo is not comparable to the Echo for about the same price (quality, fuel economy...) the smallest Ford is a Focus, to me a Focus is a full size car, (which to me means it is big enough to fill 99.9% of my needs and probably too big to fill 90% of my needs)

GM and Ford have "forgotten" the car market, except maybe the full size car market. They are reactionary, instead of thinking ahead and innovating. Considering the popularity of the GEO Metro / Sprint / Firefly, you would think GM and Suzuki would be able to offer a better product than the Aveo when it was time to offer a sub-compact car due to the rising prices of gas, of which we all new was coming...

And why doesn't Ford offer here the cars that are available in Europe (such as the Ka and Fiesta). I think they sell well, at least in the UK.

Europeans, especially Germans, believe everything they make is superior In the automotive industry this may have been true before 1985. I think they also have their own set of protectionist tarrifs and laws that make that Peugeot, Fiat, VW more interesting than the Corolla or Civic

But can you blame the Germans? In 1885, Mr. Benz invents the internal combustion engine. A year later, this guy by the name of Daimler patents a four wheel vehicle powered by such an engine. At the 1900 Paris world fair, some dude shows off an internal combustion engine that runs on peanut oil! His name was Rudolf Diesel.

Good points, HappyMom.

People seem to forget that the auto industry is not a US creation. DaimlerBenz was making cars way before Henry Ford. And Peugeot and Skoda (that's right, the high-quality Czech make Skoda) were the only other pre-1900 auto-makers in the world.

We can thank Henry Ford for making the industry as accessible and sustainable as it is today (don't laugh, the Big Three can still survive). Ford also created the first affordable automobiles, while being the first US manufacturer to provide reasonable benefits and wages, and comfortable conditions for the auto worker.

That having been said, I've seen some Europe-bashing in this thread, as far as car quality. The VW's that are built in Germany are sold only in Europe. We get the Mexican-made Golfs and Jettas which are notoriously unreliable. The German-made ones, as well as other Euro cars (Peugeot, Citroën, Renault, Volvo, Saab, Skoda) are actually very good (with the exception of Yugo, some Fiats, and some Seats (now owned by VW)).

We simply can't get German-made VW's here anymore. They would be too expensive to ship across the pond.

Anyway. bottom line: kudos to companies like Toyota for creating jobs and wealth in the US. A big jeer to all the US companies in name (and name (and geography of their head office) only) who offshore everything they can to save every last penny.

Man has this thread gone to the crapper - started going from GM issues to why Crown Vic are used in many municipalities to Hemis, etc.

As with most forums - poster's are free to post their opinions. If it starts to get too off topic, I would suggest PM as a source - otherwise the flaming back and forth will lead to the thread being closed or people getting further and further away from the topic at hand. Not sure if the admins on this board have been following off topic posts or have been even working on known issues with the site (server issues, nonfunctional search engine, etc.)

Personally, I don't mind these tangents as long as you can back your stuff up. Makes for interesting reading as well.

Let me kick in my two cents:

You can't trademark a gimmick

- Actually you can trademark nearly anything. The product doesn't even need to exist - they can be filed before any product is produced. That to me sounds like a gimmick.

 

But I agree - HEMI is not a gimmick at the time of its introduction. Compared to the flathead designs at the time - the hemi head was state of the art. Now - HEMIs are selling on past product legacy. Modern Pent head designs are much more efficient than any hemi head - but HEMI just has that name recognition that the marketing just loves.

The reason that cops and taxis run crownvics is because they'll go 200k miles with proper maintenance and they are extremely comfortable.

- For some people - most of the cops that I talked to didn't care too much for the Crown Vic. The reason it accounts for almost 85% of fleet use is the RWD drivetrain (can take curb hopping better than most FWD), have enough HP to pursue vehicles and pushing disabled vehicles off the road if needed, have four full sized doors, a manufacturer that will tailor a vehicle to fleet needs, and most importantly - no major competitors (GM killed off the Caprice, Dodge Intrepids and Chevy Impalas are FWD and are more costly to purchase due to additional strengthing of the FWD cradle to protect the drivetrain from off road excursions). Most modern cars do 200K+ miles with proper maintenance. Now, some departments cannot get Crown Vics due to a class action suit against Ford on the safety aspects of the Crown Vic. Since Ford knows that they are the only game in town for fullsized, RWD platform - they used that power to restrict sales to some customers. Sure doesn't sound like quality is the primary issue here.

On a "macro" level, wouldn't you be better of driving crappy Chevys if that is what is necessary to keep the auto industry going.

- Even though I feel sorry for GM in these tough times and the people that have lost their jobs. It was almost inevitable. Like many of the posters here - GM screwed themselves. If they can't bail themselves out by restructuring their corporate setup or turning out decent products (though they have done pretty well lately in their current offerings, might be too little too late)- then don't feel sorry when competitors carve them up.

 

Excellent post fishexpo. You said what I wanted to say.

The local sheriffs dept in here in Kansas buys used crown vics from the state troopers after the troopers put on 25k miles and then the sheriff runs them till around 120 k and finally auction them off.

So 200K is a thing of the past. I think using crown vics for Taxis extremely uneconomical because they require too much space to park and are gas guzzlers. Effectively making their running cost higer and who bears the burden of that the consumer. They probably use them as taxis because they are big and luxurious not because they can run till 200k miles without a problem. The Camry would be a better alternative to running Crown vics. As fish expo right stated the crown vic has no competiion

The Hemi looks butt ugly in my opinion. Just a marketing gimmick. Besides its a new products there is no track record of reliability.

Ashish

I think using crown vics for Taxis extremely uneconomical because they require too much space to park and are gas guzzlers. Effectively making their running cost higer and who bears the burden of that the consumer. They probably use them as taxis because they are big and luxurious not because they can run till 200k miles without a problem. The Camry would be a better alternative to running Crown vics. As fish expo right stated the crown vic has no competiion

The ultimate would actually a Avalon hybrid with a stripped down interior to reduce costs... but with the larger trunk space, better ride, and roomier interior the Avalon has over the Camry. THe only trick is to design the Hybrid system so if ther eis a problem, it will shut down and allow the car ot be operated nortmally. Reliability is a big concern for these system on high mileage vehicles and are abused. As gas prices continue to rise, I'm amazed that smaller vehiles aren't being considered for commerical use.

Ashish says:

"The Hemi looks butt ugly in my opinion. Just a marketing gimmick. Besides its a new products there is no track record of reliability."

Chrysler's HEMI engine is a legend dating back to the 1950s. Are you referring to the newer vehicles Chrysler/Dodge is putting its HEMI in?

Man has this thread gone to the crapper   - started going from GM issues to why Crown Vic are used in many municipalities to Hemis, etc.

As with most forums - poster's are free to post their opinions.  If it starts to get too off topic, I would suggest PM as a source - otherwise the flaming back and forth will lead to the thread being closed or people getting further and further away from the topic at hand.  Not sure if the admins on this board have been following off topic posts or have been even working on known issues with the site (server issues, nonfunctional search engine, etc.)

Personally, I don't mind these tangents as long as you can back your stuff up.  Makes for interesting reading as well.

Let me kick in my two cents:

You can't trademark a gimmick

- Actually you can trademark nearly anything. The product doesn't even need to exist - they can be filed before any product is produced. That to me sounds like a gimmick.

 

But I agree - HEMI is not a gimmick at the time of its introduction. Compared to the flathead designs at the time - the hemi head was state of the art. Now - HEMIs are selling on past product legacy. Modern Pent head designs are much more efficient than any hemi head - but HEMI just has that name recognition that the marketing just loves.

The reason that cops and taxis run crownvics is because they'll go 200k miles with proper maintenance and they are extremely comfortable.

- For some people - most of the cops that I talked to didn't care too much for the Crown Vic. The reason it accounts for almost 85% of fleet use is the RWD drivetrain (can take curb hopping better than most FWD), have enough HP to pursue vehicles and pushing disabled vehicles off the road if needed, have four full sized doors, a manufacturer that will tailor a vehicle to fleet needs, and most importantly - no major competitors (GM killed off the Caprice, Dodge Intrepids and Chevy Impalas are FWD and are more costly to purchase due to additional strengthing of the FWD cradle to protect the drivetrain from off road excursions). Most modern cars do 200K+ miles with proper maintenance. Now, some departments cannot get Crown Vics due to a class action suit against Ford on the safety aspects of the Crown Vic. Since Ford knows that they are the only game in town for fullsized, RWD platform - they used that power to restrict sales to some customers. Sure doesn't sound like quality is the primary issue here.

On a "macro" level, wouldn't you be better of driving crappy Chevys if that is what is necessary to keep the auto industry going.

- Even though I feel sorry for GM in these tough times and the people that have lost their jobs. It was almost inevitable. Like many of the posters here - GM screwed themselves. If they can't bail themselves out by restructuring their corporate setup or turning out decent products (though they have done pretty well lately in their current offerings, might be too little too late)- then don't feel sorry when competitors carve them up.

 

Excellent post fishexpo. You said what I wanted to say.

The local sheriffs dept in here in Kansas buys used crown vics from the state troopers after the troopers put on 25k miles and then the sheriff runs them till around 120 k and finally auction them off.

So 200K is a thing of the past. I think using crown vics for Taxis extremely uneconomical because they require too much space to park and are gas guzzlers. Effectively making their running cost higer and who bears the burden of that the consumer. They probably use them as taxis because they are big and luxurious not because they can run till 200k miles without a problem. The Camry would be a better alternative to running Crown vics. As fish expo right stated the crown vic has no competiion

The Hemi looks butt ugly in my opinion. Just a marketing gimmick. Besides its a new products there is no track record of reliability.

Ashish

Taxi cars have other needs besides fuel economy. Taxi's need a lot of work to replace wear parts. They are on the road all day. Since you have nothing good to say about American cars, I'm going to assume you have never owned one. Ford parts are way cheaper then Toyota parts. Also, the v8 on a RWD car is pretty easy to work on. It is going to be easier to find a good mechanic that knows the ins and outs of a Ford car then a Toyota car. A 4cyl would not have enough power for a Taxi. A V6 Camery would cost more then what a crown vic would cost fleet owners. The overall cost of the cars and parts would hurt more then the gas the car would save. The cars also get beat up a lot out on the street. Ford is capable of making a all the needed replacement body parts and at a cheaper price. Last but not least, the engines can go a long time without breaking. As long as they get fresh oil and coolang and don't overheat due to work water pumps, they are good to go for a long time.

Your HEMI remark was really stupid. You are bashing things you don't even understand.

Taxi cars have other needs besides fuel economy. Taxi's need a lot of work to replace wear parts. They are on the road all day. Since you have nothing good to say about American cars, I'm going to assume you have never owned one. Ford parts are way cheaper then Toyota parts. Also, the v8 on a RWD car is pretty easy to work on. It is going to be easier to find a good mechanic that knows the ins and outs of a Ford car then a Toyota car. A 4cyl would not have enough power for a Taxi. A V6 Camery would cost more then what a crown vic would cost fleet owners. The overall cost of the cars and parts would hurt more then the gas the car would save.

Ask any cabbie what car he wants and he will say Crown Victoria / Grand Marquis.

If you were going to do a twelve hour shift in a car, you would want a full size car too.

Also, there's more legroom in a CV than a Camry.

Another great cab: Lincoln Town Car. Great legroom in the backseat.

Ask any cabbie what car he wants and he will say Crown Victoria / Grand Marquis.

If you were going to do a twelve hour shift in a car, you would want a full size car too.

Also, there's more legroom in a CV than a Camry.

Another great cab: Lincoln Town Car. Great legroom in the backseat.

Our 05 Corolla got rearended by a early 90s crown vic and it freaken hurt. Only about 1300 dammage was done to our car, but we were sore for a very long time. I hope I never get hit by a heavy car again.

I got to be in a rental lincon town car once. Very nice ride. I'm only 30 so I'm not ready for a old mans car yet, but I wouldn't be surprized if I had one later in life.

we rented one too and drove it for many miles and we had no body fatigue whatsoever it was great. the grand marquis was super smooth also, that thing would probably go 100mph before reaching 3k rpms it had a great overdrive and it would pass slowpokes suprisingly fast for such a big heavy car.