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Guest rnayar

Corolla Sludge

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Guest rnayar

I am sorry if any sensibilties are hurt. I did not mean to, I am sure I am dealing with very respectable subject matter experts here. Its true I am not a auto expert so I might use wrong terminology. Sorry about that. I have shared my details with tboner and would look forward to his comments.

 

I did feel piqued when I was made to look like a fake or fishy. Just FYI, I have no reason to do so.

 

have a great day.

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trap

Hey rnayar,

 

Maybe I'm just going blind from trying to read these invoices, but are there any oil changes between 24796 and 33654 that I've missed?

 

Cheers,

 

 

 

Regular Joe

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Hey rnayar,

 

Maybe I'm just going blind from trying to read these invoices, but are there any oil changes between 24796 and 33654 that I've missed?

 

Cheers,

 

 

 

Regular Joe

I believe the 30K service included an oil change...

 

I'm assuming that, but most every "milestone" service includes Lube, Oil and Filter.

 

TB

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Thanks TB.

 

The change intervals are a little bit longer than I would allow myself, but I change earlier than required out of habit (3000miles). Despite that, I see no reason why this engine should have failed, based on the service intervals listed. I would say that this is probably either driver abuse (No accusation is intended or implied. It's just a possibility) or a manufacturing error. It's unlikely to be an engineering error as the problem is simply not common enough for that to be the case.

 

I would think that this claim should be honored, unless Toyota has some proof of engine abuse. The burden of proof lies on Toyota to prove abuse, as there is no way (other than service records) that a driver can prove conclusively that the car was operated as per its design.

 

Thanks for all of the work getting this posted and good luck with your claim, rnayar.

 

Cheers,

 

 

 

Regular Joe

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Guest Paul Cherubini

When the car had 33,654 miles (3,498 miles since the previous oil change)

the owner, R. Nayar, took the car to a Toyota dealer complaining "the engine oil light

flashes on and off". The dealership found "the vehicle has approximately

1/2 quart of oil inside the engine" and that the "inside of the valve cover

is black" and that the "dipstick is also sludged up."

http://www.saber.net/~monarch/sludge.jpg

 

So we are dealing with an owner who drove 3,498 miles without checking

the engine oil level. The oil level got so low the engine oil light flashed

on and off, signaling dangerously low oil pressure. R. Nayar STILL did not

check the oil level and STILL did not stop driving the car as instructed to in

the owners manual. Instead, Rahul Nayar continued to drive, including

driving the car to a Toyota dealer which found only 1/2 quart of oil in the

engine - a catastrophically low amount of oil. With such a tiny amount of oil

in the engine the oil was overheated and turned to sludge, just as it would

in any car. So by 33,654 miles we are dealing with an engine that suffered

severe mechanical wear, such as connecting rod bearing wear and fatigue

due to the ultra low oil level and an engine that had sludge, due to the low

oil level, that could have blocked or partly blocked critical oil supply passages

and holes in the engine.

 

Now amazingly, this damaged engine still survived almost another 20,000 miles

- to 51,888 miles - before a connecting rod bearing finally gave up and the

rod tore a hole in the side of the engine block - such holes are a classic symptom

of oil starvation due to a low oil level. Now even when the Toyota dealership

informed R. Nayar back at 33,654 miles that the engine was almost empty

of oil, he still apparently did not take personal responsibility for regularly

checking the oil level and still continued to drive the car despite ominous engine

noises. How do we know R. Nayar STILL was not checking the oil level inbetween

oil changes? Well he admitted it on the old Corolland forum. Also, he had

several oil changes done at a Fix N Go shop after the 33,654 mile oil starvation

incident and did not notice that fix n go had wildly overfilled his engine with

5 quarts of oil each time http://www.saber.net/~monarch/fixngo.jpg when only

3.5 quarts are needed to bring the level to the Full Mark on the engine oil dipstick.

 

In summary, Rahul Nayar did not check his engine oil level inbetween

engine oil changes every 3,500 - 4,500 miles. He made approximately

10 -15 stops for gas during those miles yet failed to ever check the

oil level. The owners manual recommends checking the level at EVERY

fuel stop. The bottom line is Rahul's engine would not have been destroyed

if he had monitored his engine oil level as instructed in the owners manual.

Therefore it isn't fair to ask Toyota to cover the $4,500 worth of damage

to his engine. Even Rahul's new engine could fail in the same way if he

continued to fail to monitor the engine oil level at a reasonable frequency.

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Paul,

 

You can't exactly say that happened. I could read it as there was 0.5 quarts of oil in the valve cover. It could be read in your fashion as well.

 

You also know a shop could just put down 5 quarts of oil as the standard charge for materials during an oil change.

 

I suggest instead of "accusing" him at this point, why not ask some questions of him or call the dealers, their phone numbers are easily found.

 

But before you go lambaste the guy, you at least owe him an opportunity to explain some of these things.

 

(BTW, that is the problem I have with both CB and you at times, you both go off on your particular nemisis without asking clarifying questions. Plus, you have to learn how to ask them in a non-leading fashion, such as, can you explain what the dealer found at 33K miles and what their recommendation was, the notes listed are short, and cryptic.)

 

I was more inclined to believe that the Texaco station didn't fill the oil correctly on the last change, but that too is nothing but speculation.

 

What I want to know is what did Mr Nayer do after it was recommended that he return in 100 miles for a check regarding oil consumption, I don't see a visit logged in his service records.

 

THAT is the visit he needs logged in his service records, receipt and all, to demonstrate he was following the advice of his Toyota dealership.

 

I also think that if he were told about sludge, it would have been wise to have all further changes done at Toyota. Not that other places cannot change oil, but instead to continue a relationship with the dealer and to have them continue to monitor what they saw at 33K. Now, you cannot blame sludge on NOT going to Toyota alone.

 

To me it is ironic or tragic that it was then that he started going to other outlets for service because this muddies the waters regarding the repair.

 

But we do need clarification about the 33K service visit and what was shared with the customer and what actions were taken.

 

FWIW,

 

TB

Edited by tboner

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Rahul, (I may call you that, correct?)

 

Oh, I just hopped out of the shower (it stimulates my brain) and I thought of a few more questions.

 

How much make up oil was added between oil changes? Of course, do you have receipts for this was well?

 

What was the oil level at the fillup prior to the 33K service? I expect the dipstick to read low by some amount at this fillup, what was it?

 

Did you have problems with keeping spark plugs clean? If an engine is burning oil at a high rate, it will foul spark plugs at a fairly quick rate as well.

 

How about oil leaks, is there a thick coat of oily residue under the vehicle. (Engines or transmissions leaking often leave a good coat of "goo" along the underside of the car.)

 

There where two check engine light services, was anything changed, or did they give you a reason why the CEL came on. How about the actual codes, were the code shared with you?

 

I'm sure I'll think of more as I go about my day,

 

TB

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Reminds me of a guy I know who had a 1971 Dodge Coronet (318 V8). I don't think he changed teh oil more than once every 4-5 years. KNew when to add oil because the oil light went on when he went around a turn (good design on those old Chrysler engines - oil sensor nice and high up so when it goes on, the engine is still alive). Well, one day I dropped by and he complained that the oil light was broken. I assumed he meant it wasn't lightnig up when he turned the ignition on, so I came back a while later iwth a new bulb. Well, he had meant it wasn't GOING OFF. In short, he was driving the car with the oil light on for about a month...! The dipstick was dry. Engine was making a loud clanking noise...well, lots of loud clanking noises.

 

We put in a few quarts of oil, the clanking went away, and about five years later he sold the car and got something less than ten years old. I feel sorry for it...

 

(I might add that in the ten years or so he had that car, he never washed it, either. And mechanics kept telling him it needed a new engine / transmission / electronic ignition computer. Each time I could fix it with a screwdriver (carb adjustment) or new vacuum hose!)

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Guest Paul Cherubini

tboner, you might ask Dave to email you the archives to Corolland. Much of this questioning that you want done - we already did that on Corolland in May or early June when Rahul originally posted his story about Corolla sludge. Whenever asked about checking the oil level, Rahul admitted he never checked the oil level himself inbetween changes. Nor did he ask others to check it inbetween oil changes.

 

The oil light in a Toyota will only flicker when the oil level is extremely low - like around 1 quart left in the engine and this would occur only during stopping and cornering - because the oil light is an oil PRESSURE indicating light, not an oil LEVEL indicating light. The owners manual explains this in great detail. Thus by the time the light starts flickering, engine damage is already occurring and the oil is being overheated.

 

Also a valve cover does not hold anymore than a tablespoon or two of oil and certainly not 1/2 a quart..

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I'd like to know more about the root cause of the oil loss. If it's not on the floor of the garage, where'd it go? If it was consumed in the engine, that's an engine problem and should be covered.

 

Also, I believe that the oil light comes on when the engine is down about a quart, not when it's down three quarts. What's the point of having it if it doesn't come on until you're down three quarts. That's like having gas light come on after the tank's already empty. "BLINK, BLINK - Just wanted to inform you that you are now offically out of gas." Thanks for the message....

 

Additionally, I'd like to think that everybody checks their oil every time they stop at a gas station, but we all know that simply isn't true. When I'm at a station, I never see anybody checking their oil when I'm checking mine. I'd say that less than 20% of people check on a regular basis and that less than 50% even know how to check it. Toyota recommends this, and it's a great idea. Checking oil on a regular basis can detect loss due to leaking, head gasket failure, burning, etc., but it's not a requirement of your warranty otherwise they would call it a necessary servicing and not a recommendation.

 

Cheers,

 

 

 

Regular Joe

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Guest chrisxxx39

REPLY TO TBONER

 

Rahul, (I may call you that, correct?)

 

SURE

 

Oh, I just hopped out of the shower (it stimulates my brain) and I thought of a few more questions.

 

How much make up oil was added between oil changes? Of course, do you have receipts for this was well?

 

ITS ALL DOCUMENTED. I HAVE NOTHING IN ADDITION TO WHAT I HAVE SHARED

 

What was the oil level at the fillup prior to the 33K service? I expect the dipstick to read low by some amount at this fillup, what was it?

 

I DONT HAVE A RECORD OF THAT, DEFECTS OR OBSERVATIONS IF ANY HAVE BEEN NOTED IN THE RECEIPT(S)

 

Did you have problems with keeping spark plugs clean? If an engine is burning oil at a high rate, it will foul spark plugs at a fairly quick rate as well.

 

AGAIN, NONE OF THE SERVICE REPS EVER POINTED THAT OUT OT ME WHEN I GAVE MY CAR FOR OIL CHANGE - ACTUALLY I DEPENDED FULLY ON THEM.

 

How about oil leaks, is there a thick coat of oily residue under the vehicle. (Engines or transmissions leaking often leave a good coat of "goo" along the underside of the car.)

 

NONE THAT WAS BROUGHT TO MY ATTENTION, I DID NOT SEE ANY OIL SPILLS ON THE GROUND EITHER

 

There where two check engine light services, was anything changed, or did they give you a reason why the CEL came on. How about the actual codes, were the code shared with you?

 

THE OTHER CHECK ENGINE LIGHT DETECTED BY FOX WAS SOMETHING MINOR, I DONT REMEBER WHAT IT WAS BUT I GUESS SOME HOSE PIPE(MAYBE GAS HOSEPIPE) WAS TOUCHING "SOMETHING" AND THEY CORRECTED IT.

 

I'm sure I'll think of more as I go about my day,

 

THANX BUDDY

Edited by chrisxxx39

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Regular Joe,

 

All great ideas, but I believe in most cars, the oil light is not triggered by oil level, like the low fuel light, but rather by oil pressure.

 

And yes, sadly, when it comes on, it usually means check your wallet, because you have dangerously low oil pressure.

 

And yes, the root cause is needed, and I asked some questions above to help point to the root cause, if the oil was low.

 

TB

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Guest chrisxxx39
Thanks TB.

 

The change intervals are a little bit longer than I would allow myself, but I change earlier than required out of habit (3000miles). Despite that, I see no reason why this engine should have failed, based on the service intervals listed. I would say that this is probably either driver abuse (No accusation is intended or implied. It's just a possibility) or a manufacturing error. It's unlikely to be an engineering error as the problem is simply not common enough for that to be the case.

 

I would think that this claim should be honored, unless Toyota has some proof of engine abuse. The burden of proof lies on Toyota to prove abuse, as there is no way (other than service records) that a driver can prove conclusively that the car was operated as per its design.

 

Thanks for all of the work getting this posted and good luck with your claim, rnayar.

 

Cheers,

 

 

 

Regular Joe

thanks for wishing me luck regular joe, I am sure if Mr PC is processing my case I will surely end up paying Toyota ( ha.. ha !! pun intented).

 

Oops excuse me, I have the highest regard for everyone on this board.

 

I have driven the car very conservatively, it has never been abused - 50 K miles in five years and hardly driven out of state or on long drives. My work location is right accross the street, so I hardly put on any miles. You can verify that from my receipts.

 

cheers

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