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By autotech2612, August 14, 2013



I went to Advance Auto Parts today for a CEL scan. Three codes revealed:

PO441

P0446

P0440

I searched the Forum and found this topic: https://www.corolland.com/forums/index.php?/topic/22748-3-diagnostic-codes/?hl=p0440

So, with 221,000 miles, should I just putz around and try to find something easy or just live with it?

Will my fuel economy suffer? Will these codes cause any build-up of any kind (I know this is fuel vapor-related)?

Will any EVAP components at the junkyard suffice if necessary?

Standard EVAP codes on the 8th gen - nothing really to worry about. Before you start swapping parts and if you want to eliminate them - get an EVAP smoke test. Where they introduce a tracer gas/smoke into the EVAP system and use a special testing wand to pinpoint the leak. Especially with that particular grouping of codes - could be a leak in a vacuum line, vent line, or damaged plastic valves and/or fittings on the top of the gas tank.

If you left them alone - not an issue either. Though if you live in a state that does I/M emissions testing - it will be an automatic failure. My 2002 has been popping those codes on and off for years. Got a smoke test - found it was a cut-off valve ($30 part) - every dealer I went to swore it was the vapor canister ($400-600 part). But none actual did a smoke test - only one place did at my urging only. Replaced the cut-off valve - CEL was off for a couple of years before it started to come back. This time, it was the other plastic valve on the tank. Vapor canister and VSV valves all checked out fine - vent line is clear (some people get spiders stuck in there - a particular species of spiders find gasoline odors irresistible for some reason).

I also don't top off the gas tank. Of this generation - due to the placement of the vapor canister and level of the tank - it is way easy to over fill the tank and get raw gasoline to flood the vapor canister. When that happens, the canister is ruined - have to replace it at that point.

Fish, where is the cut-off valve located? I've never seen an EVAP system set up like this. Also, is there a way to get the CEL to just turn off with these three outstanding codes? I replaced the CEL and I don't want it to burn out after constantly being on like the last bulb.

I did the "sniff test", and did not smell any gasoline odor at the top of the tank.

However, in the past, after filling (note, I never top off the tank), I have smelled gasoline for a short amount of time, and then it disappears. This has only happened twice in the 4,000 miles I've had it.

These codes won't affect my fuel economy?

Also, you really do own four Toyotas?

Additionally, I discovered something else I've never seen before:

Cutoff valve - on top of the tank, you have to drop the tank to get at the valve. Total PITA to get to.

Yeah, I'm used to the old EVAP systems - big charcoal canister with fuel vapor going into on line, vent to atmosphere on the other, and purge line running to the carburetor.

You can reset the ECM and see if the codes come back. If no new codes are triggered, the CEL will eventually turn off, as these are non-critical engine codes. But note that the codes are still stored in memory.

When I first starting noticing problems, I would get a strong gasoline odor around the driver's side passenger door, immediately after filling the tank or after getting out of the car after I filled up the night before or that morning.

No - these codes should not affect fuel economy.

Yup - that is the EVAP test port - that is what you use to smoke test the system.

Technically, three Toyotas right now, one back home - but all 4 are being used on a regular basis.

Grew up only on domestic (GM, Mopar, FoMoCo), as my dad worked for a union job in midwest US. If you drove an import, they would vandalize it every chance they got. He used to drive a 1971 BMW 2002 - but got tired of the guys constantly putting it on blocks, slashing his tires, turning it on its side. That was until a big snowstorm hit - he was the only one to drive people home, everyone else got stuck. Given that BMW's superior handling and perfect balance, just the right amount of power and a huge trunk - it was an awesome car. Unfortunately, costs a small fortune to upkeep. We junked that one, but later picked up a near identical one for collecting purposes.

I also dabbled with Hondas in the past, but they were never a mainstay for me - too finicky with maintenance, but were robust enough to mod - my first import engine swap/forced induction project. But with our first primary Japanese car was a 1996 Camry - the money we saved in just maintenance and gas from not driving the car it replaced for one year, completely paid for the Camry on year two. The Camry, we still have - 385K miles, still running well. Recently replaced a number of parts - but pretty much the first 10 years, we changed only wear parts only - nothing broke on the car, never stranded me anywhere, delivered awesome gas mileage and ride. Unfortunately, probably can't say the same for the newer Toyotas. Still better than others, but they don't make them like they used to. After that Camry experience - it was all Toyota, haven't had a reason to stray yet.

Right now - I currently have a 2002 Corolla, 2009 Matrix, and 2009 Rav4 in front of my house. We still have the Camry, but now driven by my brother. The Matrix and Rav4 are our primary ones, still drive the Corolla from time to time. Not as much, as I wanted it to slow down the miles - plan on giving the Corolla to my son as a first time car.

I disconnected the negative battery terminal (I mentioned this previously) for ten minutes and the light went off, but re-appeared on the highway during the fourth or fifth drive cycle. Would using the OBD II scanner to remove the codes be preferable?

I just want the light off. Currently, with the light continuously on, I would have to scan once in awhile if a new code comes up (e.g. the notorious downstream O2).

I will jack the rear of the car up tomorrow before work and look around above the tank. This has really piqued my curiosity. Expect a photo default_wink .

I come from a Toyota family; my mother is on her fifth Camry, my father owns a Tundra (manual), and my sister owned a Corolla -- but strayed recently and opted for a Civic. I enjoy the Civic over the Corolla (sportier feel and firmer suspension). My mother's current Camry is a 2006 SE with a manual. My sister's Civic also has a manual.

My mother was a "soccer mom" back in the early nineties and bought a 1991 Toyota Previa LE. I love the design, but I think it's a "love it or hate it" design.

I forget (or perhaps I didn't ask) the mileage on your 2002 Corolla...as well as mileage on the Matrix and RAV4.

My mother's fourth Camry had 310--- on it when she sold it for another. Automatic transmission and the fluid/filter was never changed. Was slipping a little.

I prefer the Toyota models of the early to mid-nineties, as I think (I could be wrong) they were more "Japanese" then.

Just know I take your advice and knowledge seriously and I follow through on what you recommend. I sincerely appreciate your input. I was a member of a Geo Metro forum up until last year when I had a Metro and that forum was not only disorganized, but there was a lot of pointless banter and a lot of name-calling and crude insults to the point some topics were finally "closed" or "locked" by one of the moderators. This Forum is very civil and straightforward, and I find it very refreshing.

Well, here are your photos for the day. Current trip mileage on a filled-up tank (I expect to get 400 miles on this tank too, although the fuel gauge isn't always completely accurate in level -- even after adding a bottle of Techron two months ago). Second photo is, well, I was bored. Third photo is result of me buffing out the headlights using a 3M product (four-step process).

On this generation - pulling the negative battery terminal will clear the CEL(s) - though a code reader is preferred, as you can view the codes stored and pending. Can also check on the I/M readiness monitors to see where the car is failing on the EVAP.

Yeah, that was the one thing I missed with the Hondas - their suspension setup is much "sportier" than Toyota. But that could be said for most of the JDM products at that time. Nissan/Honda/Mazda are more sport oriented - Toyota was the Buick of the Japanese market.

Mileage on my cars:

2002 Corolla S - 225K

2009 Matrix XRS - 51K

2009 Rav4 Limited 4x4 - 38K

2003 Matrix XRS (at time death) - 120K

1996 Camry - 385K.

But none could match my Dad's old Plymouth Valiant. If there are any MOPAR fans out there, you know about the reputations of the Slant-6 engine. That car had over 500K miles before the body completely rotted out. There are a number of mega-mileage Slant-6 engines out there - some with million miles+.

Great to see an 8th gen with good performance and economy with over 200K miles. Hitting almost 400 miles on a tank is excellent - as long as the engine oil not being excessively consumed - the car will run a long time. Your Corolla seems very similar to mine - engine performance, fuel economy are spot on - I don't consume any oil, but I have an excessive number of EVAP problems. EVAP is more of an annoyance that anything else - stay on top of the maintenance - 300K+ should be nothing. I'm hoping that mine with touch half-million miles - we'll see.

Nice, I too have that 3M kit - works like magic. Great pic of the lens assembly, looks pretty clear. Just make sure to wax it / protect it with some sort of UV protectant or it will cloud up pretty quickly.

Problem is, that light will not go out permanently. If it doesn't go out, I wouldn't know if another impending code is present. Right now, that's my concern. Notice I still haven't put the dash cover thing back on.

Excessive oil consumption is a common complaint on this particular year Corolla. I've read many complaints online (e.g. carcomplaints.com). This Corolla does use some, but not excessively in my opinion. What also helps is the fact I drive like an 80-year-old and that's probably why I am able to prolong the life of this slipping clutch as well.

If the light stays on constantly or goes off and comes back on soon afterwards - that points to a persistent problem with the EVAP. The system fails atleast on of the I/M readiness monitors. Might be looking to get a smoke test done to help pinpoint the leak or leaks. You could start swapping parts to fix it - though that gets really expensive quickly.

If you want some more info on the EVAP - I have a link in my signature - my photobucket account. Just look under the EVAP section.

Here is a overall layout of the EVAP system (link) https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v620/fishexpo101/EVAP%20system/EVAPlocations.jpg

Went to the gas station today. Was stuck in heavy highway traffic for 45 minutes before I got to the gas station (sometimes at a standstill for several minutes). Got 392 miles out of the tank (wasn't completely on the last line). Had the A/C on for ten minutes a few days ago. Put 10.057 gallons in the tank, 3.62 per gallon. $36.40.

I'm wondering if the fuel tank has been replaced on this car (see numbers on it). How much did you pay for a smoke test? I really do not want to drop the tank if it is revealed the cut-off valve is bad, but then again, I want the CEL off.

Possible the tank is OEM - I have numbers written on mine as well, bought mine new of the lot, likely just QC numbers.

I paid the standard diagnostic charge for the smoke test - $85. SO far, the best $85 I've ever spent. I watched the tech do part of it, didn't see all of it, liability issues - but he spent about 4 hours looking over the system.

Fish, I did some more research and I've decided I'm just going to live with it. As long as it doesn't affect my fuel economy (still hasn't), I will just have to scan once a month to see if there are any other new codes. If I did the smoke test and it turns out I'd have to lower the tank, it would be a waste of money for me (smoke test), since I do not plan on lowering the tank.

I did more city driving on this recent tank, including some usage of the A/C. In mixed driving with occasional A/C usage (still driving like grandma), I got 400.6 miles with the needle right on the last line. Put in 10.56 gallons. Not bad?

Just got done with an alignment fiasco with a Goodyear service location (3.5 weeks of headaches). Let me know if you're interested in reading about it in a message. Involves the LF tie rods being replaced.

Also, there are some rust spot areas I want to ask you about. Very minor, one small spot under passenger side door and some in the wheel-well area on RR side.

That's excellent for city driving - touch under 38MPG - that is actually better than what some people are getting on the new Ford C-Max Hybrid, that Ford just lost a class-action lawsuit to.

Sounds like your car is like mine - oil consumption is low to none, EVAP issues, but still runs great / awesome MPG. Just stay on top of the maintenance and you'll definitely get some mega-mileage out of it.

Yeah, I'd be interested in see what happened with your experience at the Goodyear service center - I'm better a number of members here might be as well. I have two Goodyear Auto Service centers right next to my house - one is pretty legit, the guys there are all straight shooters. The other shop - talk about up selling and BS diagnostics. This might have been the shop I spoke about some time ago on this site - they said my fuel filter is completely clogged - needed to change it ASAP, cost me $300. I asked them to show me where the filter was - they opened the hood and pointed at the A/C accumulator. To which I then asked to see the manager or owner immediately to complain, as the filter is inside the gas tank, and report them to the BBB for deceptive business practices.

Rust spots - depends on how big they are and if they've perforated the sheet metal or not. If they haven't punched a hole through the panel - you are still in good shape. If that is the case, either completely grind away all the rust, metal prep + prime + paint. Or use something like POR-15 - they make little touch up kits for rust. Stuff works like magic - we use it all the time for marine applications, their metal prep etches the metal and chemically reacts with any rust there. Their base paints have a rust preventative is urethane based - tough stuff when it dries.

What did the service manager say? What did the techs say? What did the BBB do?

I'll type a message to you later, as the experience is lengthy. My experience also includes two Goodyear locations

Meanwhile, here are two photos of the rust areas:

Those rust spots aren't bad at all. The one on the door, pretty simple matter of cleaning that up - looks like a stone chip started that damage. Just make sure the rust didn't spread to the back and run up under the inner door paneling. The one on the wheel well (assuming that is just past the rear passenger door) - pretty common on cars, just grind off the bubbling paint and rust - chemically treat any remaining rust, prime, paint - good to go.

As for my experience - service manager said that he defers to his technician's knowledge (basically he said I was full of it) - that they follow the guidelines on the their computer systems and that if it says the filter is in the engine bay, then it is. Technician - he didn't say squat after that, neither one wanted to show me what the computer screen said, citing liability/privacy laws!?. Basically, they boiled it down to - they were the experts, I was not. When I point out that this information is readily available on a number of online sources - they said, "so what". That's when I had to bust out the big guns. I told them to look up my certification ID on their ASE portal - they knew I called them out on BS and they refused. They tried to argue it out with me - saying that lots of things changed since then, blah blah etc. etc. I was done with them at that point - too much backpedaling on their part at that point. Even when they knew they were in the wrong - they still tried to pass it off as being correct.

At the BBB portal - I filed a complaint. Within two days, someone from Corporate contact me and offered me a coupon for x number of free oil changes, etc. etc. I said no way - if they can't even locate the part in question - how do they expect me to trust them to touch any other part of the car. All in all - basically got a "sorry" from corporate, that they'll look into it and address it accordingly. This was about 7 years ago? Shop is still there, same manager, same tech - lots of complains on a number of local message boards, but nothing has been done. Funny thing is - the "crappy" shop is always packed with customers - the good shop, lots of empty bays. Good for me - I can get in without an appointment - but I do feel bad that the good guys are losing business to the craptastic crew.

Can't really fault Goodyear overall - as these are chain shops, setup as a franchise - how well they work, depends on the level of expertise of their staff. Between the two Goodyear shops close to me - there is a quantum leap in difference of level of competence and customer service. Example - the "good" shop closes at 7PM, but if they know you are coming and have an emergency, the staff will stay late and work on the car. No extra labor charges, no complaining - they know someone is jammed up and they are offering to help. They even patched up a hole in my tire for free - I didn't buy the tire there, I didn't have it mounted there - I was a walk-in, came up the counter and asked them if they could look at the tire. They said no problem, drove the car right into the bay and worked on it ASAP. I offered to pay - but they said not to worry about it. After that - I've taken all my cars there for state inspections, emissions, tire balance, tire mounting, and alignments.

Side question before I message you: Do you have any "notchiness" when shifting into third gear. On mine, at times shifting into third seems a little "raw" in a way.

This is a 5-speed? Upshift or downshift, or doesn't matter?

There are a number of reasons why it feels "notchy". If you haven't changed out the gear oil - then that would be the first thing on my list. After that - look at mechanical issues, shifter cables are in good shape, make sure the linkages to the shifter arm on the transaxle are solid, might be worthwhile to pull the boot off the shifter assembly and look at the bushings there. If they are distorted, damaged or missing - they can allow for excessive slop in the shifter assembly.

Just feels like when I shift (down or up -- it's a 5-speed) to third gear, it's close to the gear spinning. It's hard to explain. Will change out the gear oil and further investigate before coming back to you on this one.



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