It's about time to change the brake fluid on my 1999 Corolla VE automatic. I want a proper way to do it. When I last own 1990 Honda accord some time ago, bleeding the brakes cause my master cylinder to fail. So eversince then I am scare to do it. I was told that my master cylinder failed b/c I introduced air into it. Another person told me b/c some time getting new fluid to mix with old can cause the failure. Are these assumptions correct?
Some one suggested that if I am not comfortable with bleeding the brakes, perhap I just suck as much old fluid out of the reservoir under the hood as possible and just fill it up with new fluids. Do this twice or 3X after driving the car would be like having new fluid in the system as you could never remove all of the old fluid from the system completely. Do you guys think this is a good idea?
Thanks.
Hello guys,It's about time to change the brake fluid on my 1999 Corolla VE automatic. I want a proper way to do it. When I last own 1990 Honda accord some time ago, bleeding the brakes cause my master cylinder to fail. So eversince then I am scare to do it. I was told that my master cylinder failed b/c I introduced air into it. Another person told me b/c some time getting new fluid to mix with old can cause the failure. Are these assumptions correct?
Should I use Toyota fluid or another brand is ok.
Air getting to the master cylinder is not good - but generally will not cause it to fail, unless the master cylnder was faulty to begin with or on its way out. Mixing old fluid and new fluid - if different types, can cause some headaches. Generally speaking, mixing of fluids won't do anything except change the overall color of the fluid. Not like a regular oil change, you really do need to get the old stuff out and replace it with fresh fluid. Otherwise, the new fluid will just absorb whatever moisture is already present in the system - the net effect is you still have contaminated, old fluid.
As long as you stick with a DOT3 fluid or better - you are OK. Be wary of Silicone fluids (DOT5), they are not compatible with our systems. DOT 3 and DOT are compatible, but not recommended to mix the two - since overall braking performance will be dictated by the lowest spec fluid. Brand does not matter, but how long the fluid has been sitting on the shelf does. Overtime, even unopened bottles of brake fluid is draw in moisture. If you had some leftover brake fluid that you used to top off the reservior, then a year down the road - want to flush the brake fluid. I would just pitch the opened bottle and buy a new one. In that time, it would have absorbed some moisture and would affect its performance.
There should be a post here that describes the procedure on bleeding the brake system. That article you have has you completely empty the master cylinder which will require you to separately bleed the master cylinder of air before you bleed the rest of the system. IMO, that is an extra step that you can do without.
Some one suggested that if I am not comfortable with bleeding the brakes, perhap I just suck as much old fluid out of the reservoir under the hood as possible and just fill it up with new fluids. Do this twice or 3X after driving the car would be like having new fluid in the system as you could never remove all of the old fluid from the system completely. Do you guys think this is a good idea?Thanks.
That procedure will not work like you think. Brake fluid will not "circulate" though the system, like motor oil or transmission fluid. Pretty static in most cases. Siphoning out the reservior will just make the color look better, will not help the braking system. In some cases, it could potentially be a failure point. If you try and siphon the system and accidentally introduce a foreign substance (chemical contaminant, moisture, particulates, etc.) it could damage the oil seals on the brake system (master cylinder especially). Better to pull (gravity or vacuum bleeding systems) or push (pressure bleeding systems) the oil brake fluid out through the individual wheel cylinders/calipers. That will insure that the fluid has been completely replaced. If you are uncomfortable doing this - have a shop do it and get a written warranty. If something goes wrong, it will be on their nickel, not yours.
Bikeman982
The best way to beed the brakes is to have a machine that pressurizes the system and adds fluid as it comes out the bleed valves at the wheels (rear first).
That way no air is introduced and enough fluid is pushed thru that all the old fluid is drained out.
It can also be done a slower, more tedious way by having someone pump on the brake pedal as you add fluid to the main reservoir and also bleed it from each wheel.
How much do you think a shop would charge to change the brake fluid? I need to do it for my Honda Accord as well.
Thanks.
That would probably work just fine - but if it was me, I'd spend an extra $5 or so and get a Mityvac one. Should be well within the reach of your typical DIYer.
As for the shops - depends on what they specialize in and where you live at. You can call around to get estimates - around my area - prices go anywhere from $75 and up. I've seen them advertised as low as $49 with a coupon - depending on the shop.
How much do you think a shop would charge to change the brake fluid? I need to do it for my Honda Accord as well.
Thanks.
It looks like the pump will work, although I have never used one.
I have used a machine and also done it with another person the manual method.
I think with the right conditions, you can do a very successful brake fluid change yourself.
Good luck, let us know how it goes.
Bad_dude
That would probably work just fine - but if it was me, I'd spend an extra $5 or so and get a Mityvac one. Should be well within the reach of your typical DIYer.
As for the shops - depends on what they specialize in and where you live at. You can call around to get estimates - around my area - prices go anywhere from $75 and up. I've seen them advertised as low as $49 with a coupon - depending on the shop.
Hi Fishexpo101,
I think I am going to buy the Mityvac. I work for the company so I get 20% off plus the sale prices. So basically I use the Mityvac to vacuum out the brake fluid as it sucks out the fluid from the cylinders, which eliminates the need for the 2nd person to pump the brake pedal right?
The master cylinder on my Honda accord was replaced at 95K miles and the car now has 132K, what is the chance of it failing after I bleed my brakes?
As for my 1999 Corolla VE, I don't know if the master cylinder was ever replaced as I have no record for maintenance. The fluid does not look too bad. It has around 99K on it. What is the chance of the master cylinder failing after I bleed this Corolla?
I want to so it to save the money and also to learn how to.
Thanks,
Correct - the vacuum will allow you to pull the old brake fluid out without the need for someone else to assist. Just have to make sure the reservoir is full of fluid before you start and periodically as you pull the old brake fluid out. That way, you do not accidentally pull air into the system - which means that you have to start over again.
As for chances of the master cylinder failing - it depends on the condition of the master cylinder itself and condition of the fluid. If the master cylinder is bad or starting to go (good example is the pedal creep symptom) - it will fail no matter what you do. My personal experience is that I've never had any master cylinder fail because I was bleeding out the old fluid.
I get into the habit of changing my brake fluid every 2 years or 30K miles - via a vacuum bleeder or with an assistant to help out. The fluid probably will last a lot longer than that - but I like to minimize the chance of corrosion in the system. So far - I've had zero problems with both of my daily drivers - 150K on the Corolla, almost 100K on the Matrix - same procedure that I followed on my 2nd gen Camry that has over 280K miles and 3rd gen Celica that had well over 300K miles. I know on Toyota ABS systems - you bleed them just like regular brakes - on other makes, this may not be the case. In some - without jumpering the ABS module or cycling the ABS system, you may cause brake failure.
Bad_dude
Thanks Fishexpo101,
I just got out of work and will be off the next 2 days. I got the Mityvac kit and a pair of 3 ton jack stands. I am not sure my old 1990 Honda Accord is equip with ABS. I'll check on that, but the car might be too old to have ABS on it.
One more question, what exactly is a pedal creep symptom. What does it feels like? I had the same exact Honda Accord before and the brake pedal is also a little low compare to my Corolla. Never the less, it's time for the brake bleed any way.
Just so that I have the steps correctly:
1) I connect the Mityvac and plug it into the bleeding valve.
2) Push the pump to build up pressure in the Mityvac.
3) Make sure the master Cylinder reservoir is full. (Here's is my question, should I suck some of the old fluid from the reservoir and put in new fluid?) Should I put the cap back on after the reservoir is fill and open as I refill to prevent moisture going in?
4) Turn the bleeding valve to let the Mityvac suck the old fluid out.
5) Tighten the bleeding valve, check the reservoir to refill fluid.
6) Continue until I see new fluid coming out.
7) Move on to the next cylinder.
How much new fluid should I buy for each car?
Thanks,
Brake creep - is when you hold down the brake pedal as the car is idling, eventually the pedal will start to sink to the floor or the car will start to creep forward, even though you are holding down the brake pedal. Acts like the brake system is not keeping pressure in the system.
You don't need to siphon out the old fluid - as you'll pull quite a bit of fluid out in the bleeding process. The master cylinder reservoir will constantly refreshed with fresh fluid and you try and maintain the reservoir filled. It is a good idea to replace the cap - as it provides protection from stuff falling into the reservoir. Can't do anything about moisture - as it will eventually make its way into the system (brake system is not entirely closed - there is actually a vent on the top of the cap).
Steps are correct - make sure to start from the furthest corner of the car from the master cylinder and work your way up to it. Start with the passenger side rear, then the driver size rear, to the passenger side front, to the driver side front. How much fluid will vary from car to car - if you plan on doing both cars - two little bottles (12 oz) should be enough. If you have standard transmissions on either one - then you might want to bleed the master clutch cylinder and slave cylinder as well - some have separate reservoirs, some are combined with the brake master cylinder.
Last time I did it - I bought the bigger 32oz bottle and had quite a bit left over. I got it because cost wise, it was cheaper to get the larger bottle vs two little ones. Completely up to you. Remember, better to stick with fresh fluid. If you get the larger bottle - you can use it to top off the system after you drive around for a few weeks - but anything more than a year or two, if you need to top off for any reason - I would just buy a new bottle. Normally, the fluid should not need to be topped off, even as the brake pads wear down. They set up the min.max lines so this doesn't happen. If you notice that you need to add a significant amount of brake fluid - it is very likely you have a leak somewhere (brake line, bleeder valve, caliper, wheel cylinder, etc.)
Bad_dude
I see, I had that brake creep problem when I first bleed a 90 Honda Accord some years ago. Master Cylinder failed. Thanks for all of your help Fisherpo101.
One last question, does the car has to be level when I bleed the brake cylinders? I have only a pair of jack stands and want to do the back first then the front.
Sorry but I am a newbie at this but how do I know if my car has the master clutch cylinder and a slave cylinder? I don't see any mention in the repair manuals. Both of the cars are automatic transmission, but I didn't think these have anything related.
Thanks.
Brake creep - is when you hold down the brake pedal as the car is idling, eventually the pedal will start to sink to the floor or the car will start to creep forward, even though you are holding down the brake pedal. Acts like the brake system is not keeping pressure in the system.
You don't need to siphon out the old fluid - as you'll pull quite a bit of fluid out in the bleeding process. The master cylinder reservoir will constantly refreshed with fresh fluid and you try and maintain the reservoir filled. It is a good idea to replace the cap - as it provides protection from stuff falling into the reservoir. Can't do anything about moisture - as it will eventually make its way into the system (brake system is not entirely closed - there is actually a vent on the top of the cap).
Steps are correct - make sure to start from the furthest corner of the car from the master cylinder and work your way up to it. Start with the passenger side rear, then the driver size rear, to the passenger side front, to the driver side front. How much fluid will vary from car to car - if you plan on doing both cars - two little bottles (12 oz) should be enough. If you have standard transmissions on either one - then you might want to bleed the master clutch cylinder and slave cylinder as well - some have separate reservoirs, some are combined with the brake master cylinder.
Last time I did it - I bought the bigger 32oz bottle and had quite a bit left over. I got it because cost wise, it was cheaper to get the larger bottle vs two little ones. Completely up to you. Remember, better to stick with fresh fluid. If you get the larger bottle - you can use it to top off the system after you drive around for a few weeks - but anything more than a year or two, if you need to top off for any reason - I would just buy a new bottle. Normally, the fluid should not need to be topped off, even as the brake pads wear down. They set up the min.max lines so this doesn't happen. If you notice that you need to add a significant amount of brake fluid - it is very likely you have a leak somewhere (brake line, bleeder valve, caliper, wheel cylinder, etc.)
That's probably what killed the Accord then - sounds like the master cylinder was on its way out. Probably just a coincidence that it failed after you flushed out the brake fluid.
A level work surface would be safer for you (car won't roll on you) - but the car itself, being absolutely level, is not critical. With a pair of jackstands, you should not be able to crank the car up that high anyways - just need it high enough to get the wheels off and get at the bleeder screws. Only time this becomes a problem is if you jackup a corner or axle high enough that the bleeder screw is higher than the master cylinder and gravity bleeding the brakes. With the Mityvac unit you have - this will be a non-issue.
Since both your cars are automatics - you don't need to worry about anything else except for the brake master cylinder - you only need to worry about the slave cylinder if you have a manual transaxle. Just threw that info in there as I didn't know what you had, transmission wise. Good Luck.
Bad_dude
Wow it's so much clearer now. Thanks super Fishexpo101. I have googled and read that quite a few people have used the Mityvac and unhappy with it b/c I guess the tube fitting and the bleeding screws can cause air entry. How to I get around that to have a much more successful brake bleeding event? I don't want to start the work and having to spend endless hours to try to get the air out when the problem is the vacuum pump itself.
Thanks,
That's probably what killed the Accord then - sounds like the master cylinder was on its way out. Probably just a coincidence that it failed after you flushed out the brake fluid.
A level work surface would be safer for you (car won't roll on you) - but the car itself, being absolutely level, is not critical. With a pair of jackstands, you should not be able to crank the car up that high anyways - just need it high enough to get the wheels off and get at the bleeder screws. Only time this becomes a problem is if you jackup a corner or axle high enough that the bleeder screw is higher than the master cylinder and gravity bleeding the brakes. With the Mityvac unit you have - this will be a non-issue.
Since both your cars are automatics - you don't need to worry about anything else except for the brake master cylinder - you only need to worry about the slave cylinder if you have a manual transaxle. Just threw that info in there as I didn't know what you had, transmission wise. Good Luck.
On mine - I used a spare length of clear tubing (I don't remember what the I.D. is, but it was some leftover tubing from an air pump for an aquarium). Thet stuff that comes with the Mityvac, some come with an accessory kit, is way to stiff and sits a little loose on the bleeder screw. The clear aquarium air tubing is a little tight around the bleeder screw - but keep at it as the tube is "soft" and will tightly form around the bleeder screw, making a good seal. Then I use the reducer that comes with the vacuum pump (looks like a pipe union, that is tapered on one side). The thicker tube from the Mityvac goes on one side, the clear tubing goes on the other. Instead of pumping the old fluid into the little cup on the Mityvac - I just take a length of tubing and stick it into a clear jug, and then put a vacuum on the jug (this would be a little difficult to make, as it has to be airtight and rigid enough - I would start with the included cup to start out with). Then periodically stopping to refill the reservoir - or if I have a helper, have them refill the reservoir for me. Note that you don't have to be constantly pumping to setup a vacuum - just pull the trigger enough to pull a vacuum, let it draw in the old fluid, continue pumping when the fluid flow is reduced.
The trick is to not pull too much a vacuum on the line. One - you'll cave in the tubing from too much vacuum, and potentially suck in air in the process. In a sense, you re basically assisting a gravity bleeding of the system. You only want to put enough vacuum to pull the fluid along, will take a little while. I believe most of the issues that people have seen is that they don't want to wait for the fluid to be pulled out and put a much stronger vacuum on it than needed. Less is more, in this case. Another trick is to smear some grease on the bleeder nipple - this will help make a air tight seal with the tubing and assist in installation and removal of the tubing (prevent cracking and tearing of the tubing).
I should add that you should really clean around the reservoir before you pop it open. That will minimize the amount of stuff that could drop in once you do open it. If you notice that there is standing sediment on the bottom of the reservoir - then this would be the correct time to siphon out the old fluid directly from the reservoir. This will prevent the "junk" from damaging the seals downstream. This also assumes that the same "junk" hasn't already done that. As for the reservoir - try and keep the fluid around the MIN mark - this will give you a little bit of a buffer, incase you can't get to the master cylinder immediately. The fluid actually can drop surprisingly fast after the MIN mark - so keep an eye on it. If the master cylinder runs dry - you have to repeat the bleeding procedure on each corner to be safe.
Bad_dude
What size tubing should I get? I think these fish tubing can be purchase from Walmart.
Should be able to find these tube almost anyplace that sell pet supplies - I got some at Petsmart for something like $4 for 20 feet of airline. I think the I.D. was 1/4" - but I can't remember off the top of my head. Most of that airline is silicone tubing anyways - so it will stretch quite a bit.
The Mityvac unit I have looks almost identical to the one you have - only the little rubber bits are different and a vacuum guage (MV7000 is the one I have). If you tubing doesn't seem to work for you - the little rubber bits that look like a corncob pipe, as the "universal" brake bleeder adapters. You can try those and see how they work for you - for me, I coudn't get them to stay put.
I'll try and get pics up by the weekend - as its about time for me to do the brakes again. Depends on the weather and if I can get some projects off my plate and get some time for myself.
Bad_dude
Thanks so much for your help. My wife drives the 1999 Corolla and I try to save money by doing it myself whenever I can, but we got a tiny studio and tools are expensive. I like doing it myself as I can take my time and be more careful. We both got gigantic student loans that we are paying off slowly.
My car is the 1990 Honda Accord LX and I do most of the stuffs myself but the brakes is my next DIY project.
Does it make any good difference if Valvoline synthetic is used instead of the conventional DOT 3 or 4? I would think that all brake fluids are synthetic.
I am a lot more knowledgable about computers than cars but I am learning more.
Thanks again.
Should be able to find these tube almost anyplace that sell pet supplies - I got some at Petsmart for something like $4 for 20 feet of airline. I think the I.D. was 1/4" - but I can't remember off the top of my head. Most of that airline is silicone tubing anyways - so it will stretch quite a bit.
The Mityvac unit I have looks almost identical to the one you have - only the little rubber bits are different and a vacuum guage (MV7000 is the one I have). If you tubing doesn't seem to work for you - the little rubber bits that look like a corncob pipe, as the "universal" brake bleeder adapters. You can try those and see how they work for you - for me, I coudn't get them to stay put.
I'll try and get pics up by the weekend - as its about time for me to do the brakes again. Depends on the weather and if I can get some projects off my plate and get some time for myself.
Bad_dude
What do you think about gravity bleeding? It takes about an hour right? This will minimize the master cylinder damage. How much fluid total do I need? I saw a bottle of 32oz., would that be enough?
Thanks.
Bikeman982
I did not find any capacity for brake fluid, but I believe it is not much more than a quart or so.
You can bleed the system and stop at any point, then continue later.
The main concern would be to keep air out by keeping the master cylinder fluid amount above the low limit at all times.
Hope this helps.
The big 32 OZ bottle should be more than enough. Gravity bleeding will work - but will take a while. Some cases, may not be enough to get the old fluid and air out of the system, since you will have to jack that corner of the car up.
If you have someone to help, a two person brake bleeding session goes very quickly. Just have to very clearly coordinate actions. If you already have a vacuum bleeder, why gravity bleed. One method is not necessarily safer than the other - just have to keep dirt/debris out of the master cylinder as you top it off.
Bad_dude
The big 32 OZ bottle should be more than enough. Gravity bleeding will work - but will take a while. Some cases, may not be enough to get the old fluid and air out of the system, since you will have to jack that corner of the car up.
If you have someone to help, a two person brake bleeding session goes very quickly. Just have to very clearly coordinate actions. If you already have a vacuum bleeder, why gravity bleed. One method is not necessarily safer than the other - just have to keep dirt/debris out of the master cylinder as you top it off.
Do you think a bottle of 32Oz is enough for 2 cars or just one?
Thanks.
Bad_dude
I'll try and get pics up by the weekend - as its about time for me to do the brakes again. Depends on the weather and if I can get some projects off my plate and get some time for myself.
I hope you get a chance to do the job yourself so we can enjoy the pics. Probably do mine next Wednesday. Please tell us how long it would take you with the vacuum pump.
Thanks.
Bikeman982
The big 32 OZ bottle should be more than enough. Gravity bleeding will work - but will take a while. Some cases, may not be enough to get the old fluid and air out of the system, since you will have to jack that corner of the car up.
If you have someone to help, a two person brake bleeding session goes very quickly. Just have to very clearly coordinate actions. If you already have a vacuum bleeder, why gravity bleed. One method is not necessarily safer than the other - just have to keep dirt/debris out of the master cylinder as you top it off.
Do you think a bottle of 32Oz is enough for 2 cars or just one?
Thanks.
Your 32 OZ is equal to a quart and would probably do only one car.
I'll try and post up some picks (maybe by tonight, tomorrow?) - I didn't get a chance to do both of my cars, just the Matrix, but they are very similar. Time-wise, I spend about three hours outside - but I was also screwing around quite a bit and having my son help out. I'll see if I can get the Corolla done in the next couple of days and post up its pics as well.
Bad_dude
I'll try and post up some picks (maybe by tonight, tomorrow?) - I didn't get a chance to do both of my cars, just the Matrix, but they are very similar. Time-wise, I spend about three hours outside - but I was also screwing around quite a bit and having my son help out. I'll see if I can get the Corolla done in the next couple of days and post up its pics as well.