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Global Warming?

By TRCar54, January 30, 2007

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Thanks for the logical information Fish.

I'm all for being careful with pollutants and waste but apparently "the sky is not falling".

http://www.canadafreepress.com/2007/global-warming020507.htm

Jay in MA

...........Problem is always with scale - how far do you look back, how long will these processes take, how soon is too soon, how late is too late, etc. Also depends on where and how the information is being presented - is it from a climatologists (hundreds to thousands of years scale) or meterologists (hours, days, years scale).

As for pulling trends from past years datas, or even looking at data from the past 3 years, or 5 years, or even 10-20 years ago - may look very impressive - but you cannot accurately paint a picture if you look at only aspect on a microscoptic scale. Many make for more exciting reading or spawn a good number of publications, but does little to advance the scientific community's understanding.

Thanks for the logical information Fish.I'm all for being careful with pollutants and waste but apparently "the sky is not falling".

 

http://www.canadafreepress.com/2007/global-warming020507.htm

Jay in MA

I did a google search on the author of the article above, and lo and behold, look what I found:

"Previously, Ball [author] has been identified as a Canadian climate change sceptic who is a "scientific advisor" to the oil industry-backed organization, Friends of Science."

Timothy Ball, the author of the article above, is paid for by the oil industry!

FIsh,

You have confused to hell out of us. Let's go straight for the bottom line: do you agree with the scientific community's consensus that GW is "most likely man made", or not? I think the scientific community defined "most likely" to be roughly 90%.

Depends on whom you ask. Depends on your definition of "man-made". Also, the scientific community does not have any consensus on GW, at this point. Any concensus you may have read about or hear about - are generally politically driven - since this is a "hot" button for many.

Pretty sad actually - Politics driving real science out and forcing many good scientists take a stand on one side of the fence or other, all the while dangling a carrot (funding for research) if you help focus the research and publish results that will help tow my Political line and message.

But I digress - To help take some of the confusion out of this - lets make sure that everyone is on the same page here. Let's start with the popular definition of "global warming"? Some definitions are as follows:

- A gradual warming of the Earth's atmosphere reportedly caused by the burning of fossil fuels and industrial pollutants.

- The progressive gradual rise of the earth's surface temperature thought to be caused by the greenhouse effect and responsible for changes in global climate patterns. An increase in the near surface temperature of the Earth.

- An overall increase in world temperatures which may be caused by additional heat being trapped by greenhouse gases.

- An increase over time of the average temperature of Earth's atmosphere and oceans.

- The slow increase of the Earth's surface temperature.

- The gradual warming of the earth due to the "greenhouse effect".

- An increase in the temperature of the Earth's surface caused by trapping infrared radiation in carbon dioxide, increased amounts of which are produced by burning fossil fuels.

As you can see - most of the definitions for Global Warming center around these "greenhouse gases" - largely CO2 (produced by both man-made and natural sources) that influence the climate, trending to an increased planet temperature.

My definition of GW - "Global contrasts in the climate taking into account all enhancements of the greenhouse compared with natural variations."

Can't really say if GW is man made event or not - it is very easy to point the finger at the human enhancements to the gobal scene - the Kyoto accord in the late 90's doesn't help matters either. But I will say that mankind does have some influence on the climate - but at much smaller scales than what the popular prevailing idea suggests.

To say that GW was solely based on pollution generated by transportation and power generation is totally bogus. Actually, looking at the global scale - these only contribute a fraction of the total worldwide generation of these emissions. The biggest gas emission of interest is methane.

Over the last two centuries or so, methane concentrations in the atmosphere globally - have more than doubled. The rate of growth has started to taper off a bit - but the amount of methane present is still quite a bit higher than previous records indicated (also compared to 400,000 year old air pockets trapped in ice). Methane has a life span of 10-15 years in the atmosphere and is 20x more effective than CO2 in its ability to "warm" the planet. Largest man-made sources of methane are landfills and agriculture. Methane is also one of the most common natural emission as well. But you have to ask - so what. This looks really bad for man - since we are solely responsible for our part of generating all these excess gasses.

But even if you pumped 10x more methane into the atmosphere and CO2 to match - it would be an insignificant fraction compared (about 5% if you take into account the #1 natural source, about 0.3% if you don't) to the number 1 leading greenhouse gas - WATER VAPOR. Almost all of the water vapor produced is natural. Sure, locally, pollution from transportation and power generation make the air around you pretty dirty - but on a global sense - doesn't even put a dent into the overall picture.

Couple all these gasses with external events (recent research (2000+) have pointed to cosmic sources (more sensitive scientific packages, starting to look at the "BIG" picture) - the cyclical eccentricities in Earth's rotation and orbit, variations in the sun's energy output, and the cyclical waves of cosmic radiation - potentially accounting for atleast 75% influence of our climate. Pretty scary - we do not have as much control over the climate as we thought we did.

Given this - GW is NOT solely man-made. We do have some influence - but only to about 0.3% of the picture (greenhouse gas emission-wise).

Does that mean that we should not care about what man can do - not at all, man has a responsibility to himself to himself and to the environment - to whatever faction we can do, we should. Greenhouse emissions from transportation and power generation is a small part that w can control - we can also control emissions from landfills, agriculture, deforestation, and recovery of natural resources. Fossil fuels are a finite resource - it will eventually run out - it may be tomorrow, it may be thousands of years - but it will eventually run out. Mankind has the ability to adapt to innovate - we have to be accountable for our actions. If you cut down a forest - replant it. If you make a mess - clean it up. Common sense kind of stuff. This will all make great changes for the local scale (cleaner air for example) - on a global scale it really doesn't matter too much, as external events have so much more influence than what we can every do.

All this info can be found in these reference:

- IEA Greenhouse Gas R&D Programme, Gloucestershire, United Kingdom

- Carbon Dioxide Information Analysis Center (DoE) Oak Ridge, Tennessee

- U.S. Environmental Protection Agency

- William C. Trogler, Eric Bruner, Glenn Westwood, Barbara Sawrey, and Patrick Neill, Department of Chemistry and Biochemistry, University of California at San Diego, La Jolla, California

- SM. Freidenreich and V. Ramaswamy, “Solar Radiation Absorption by Carbon Dioxide, Overlap with Water, and a Parameterization for General

Circulation Models,” Journal of Geophysical Research 98 (1993)

- Patrick J. Michaels, DR., "Global Deception: The Exaggeration of the Global Warming Threat", 1998, Virginia State Climatologist and Professor of Environmental Sciences, University of Virginia

- Tim Patterson, DR., "The Geologic Record and Climate Change", 2005, Professor of Geology, Carleton University, Ottawa, Canada

- Nir Shaviv, DR., Racah Institute of Physics, Hebrew University of Jerusalem (astrophysicist)

- Jan Veizer, Dr., University of Ottawa in Canada (geochemist)

Excellent feedback.................thanks.

Bikeman982

Excellent feedback.................thanks.
He didn't answer directly, but it sounds like he believes in it, but feels that it is not caused mostly by people.

 

Fishe is right - we do need to be more concerned about our environment and reduce the human portion of the destruction of the planet.

I tried looking into GW to decide if I believed in man-made GW or otherwise. There's nothing conclusive. And there's very little research that doesn't have a hidden agenda tagged on to it. Back in the 1970's people were fearing a "global cooling", and that apparantly didn't happen.

As it stands, it makes more sense to believe that man is aiding it and attempt to lessen the effect we're having on the atmosphere. If man isn't a primary factor, then there's no real loss is reducing the emissions we put out. But if man is a primary cause and we choose to ignore it, then we condemn ourselves.

Back in the 1970's people were fearing a "global cooling"...
Yep, that seems to happen....it's almost cyclic... default_wink

 

 

Bikeman982

Back in the 1970's people were fearing a "global cooling"...

Yep, that seems to happen....it's almost cyclic... default_wink

 

I would rather it get warmer, than cooler - but that is just me.

 

 

I would rather it get warmer, than cooler - but that is just me.
Spend a summer in Houston and see if you still feel the same...

 

It can get rather warm in certain parts of the state in which I live...

Bikeman982

I would rather it get warmer, than cooler - but that is just me.

Spend a summer in Houston and see if you still feel the same...

 

It can get rather warm in certain parts of the state in which I live...

Either extreme is not very comfortable.

 

I have heard that once you get acclimated, your blood thins out for hot weather, or gets thicker for cooler climates.

I dont know. I have never lived anywhere else but Texas. We dont have much of a bad winter down here. I live north of Dallas now and it just gets cold (freezing temps) and icy....not usually much snow.

Bikeman982

I dont know. I have never lived anywhere else but Texas. We dont have much of a bad winter down here. I live north of Dallas now and it just gets cold (freezing temps) and icy....not usually much snow.
I have lived in Massachusetts, Michigan and California. (doesn't count things like Basic Training in Texas, or Tech School in Illinois and Mississippi), or foreign countries or short trips like to the desert or Africa or quick temporary duties (less than 3 months).

 

I had lots of cold experience and also some hot ones. It seems like the opposite to what you are experiencing is what you desire.

I knew that when I got off the flightline in Michigan's cold, that I would be happier, if it was warmer, wherever it was.

I made it to CA and it gets cold at night but I have to drive 3 hours to get to snow.

  • 1,424 posts
I dont know. I have never lived anywhere else but Texas. We dont have much of a bad winter down here. I live north of Dallas now and it just gets cold (freezing temps) and icy....not usually much snow.

Well aren't you lucky. I've lived most of my life in Ohio and Michigan. There are terrible winters in Michigan. By Michigan standards, Ohio winters, especially Southern Ohio winters are little snow showers. However, Ohio is so unprepared for them that 3" of snow makes it seem like a blizzard of unimaginable proportions in some areas. 3" will actually cause some counties to issue level 3 snow emergencies, which make it illegal to drive on the road unless you're a government employee. Businesses will close early if there is a strong possibility that a snow is moving in.

I have lived in Massachusetts my entire life and love the summers. Typically high eighties, sunny all day and cool at night. Cant be beat, but winter times can be harsh. Someone said earlier that its snowed a total of three times here this year. Thats correct, but we have had other relatively snowless winters in my lifetime. This one does not shock me in the least.

I believe that all of this global warming nonsense is another cold war era.

Man affects the climate, but I dont think were gonna kill ourselves. Let the scientists worry.

Back in the 1950s, the country used to unrestrictively burn fossil fuel, dump toxic waste in rivers, burn garbage, and throw away recycleable materials. Even if global warming is a myth, I think not even addressing it is more dangerous than overexhagerating it. Would you really want to go back in time and live in the 1950s? It was alot dirtier than the movies like to portray it. I don't know about you, but even driving behind a 20 year old car, I got to roll up the windows and cut the air conditioning just to absolve myself of the stench those things emit. We have come a long way since then because of "fears". People once criticized recycling the same way you criticize global warming. No one could possibly have thought the world was going to fill up with garbage. Well compare the United States today to a 3rd world nation where they don't have recycling or regulations on garbage or disposal of wastes. Garbage and filth piles up on streets and degrades life in places like Brazil.

Maybe global warming isn't happening or his the fault of humans, but can we really just stick our heads in the sand and not try and do something about it?

Edit: One thing to follow up; even if global warming isn't humans' fault, it has been more than proven that emissions from burning fossil fuels causes increased rates of cancer, lung disease, asthma, and other harmful effects. We may not cure global warming, but our efforts will not be in vain and could save many lives and better our planet in other ways we are not aware of. Do we really have to live by the 1984 motto, "Ignorance is truth"?

Well aren't you lucky.
HaHa...that is true.

 

...until July...

Bikeman982

Back in the 1950s, the country used to unrestrictively burn fossil fuel, dump toxic waste in rivers, burn garbage, and throw away recycleable materials. Even if global warming is a myth, I think not even addressing it is more dangerous than overexhagerating it. Would you really want to go back in time and live in the 1950s? It was alot dirtier than the movies like to portray it. I don't know about you, but even driving behind a 20 year old car, I got to roll up the windows and cut the air conditioning just to absolve myself of the stench those things emit. We have come a long way since then because of "fears". People once criticized recycling the same way you criticize global warming. No one could possibly have thought the world was going to fill up with garbage. Well compare the United States today to a 3rd world nation where they don't have recycling or regulations on garbage or disposal of wastes. Garbage and filth piles up on streets and degrades life in places like Brazil.

Maybe global warming isn't happening or his the fault of humans, but can we really just stick our heads in the sand and not try and do something about it?

Awareness is a good thing. Global warming may or may not be true, but people do have to be aware that some things they do are not good for the environment.

 

There has to be a conscious effort to reduce pollution and toxic gases.

Here is what you need to answer. If man is responsible for global warming, how much is his contribution compared to natural phenomena such as cattle belching, natural swamps and plain water vapor. Is his contribution small but is it large enought to be the tipping point. Has that been proven?

Also, as much as we want to decrease global warming, why are we not making adjustments as opposed to trying to fight nature. Is it necessary for us to live along coastal areas so that we can have the ocean view. Get inland, please. I live in Florida but I bought my house more than 30 miles inward from the sea.

The effect on economy is going to be great. Check it out.

Alternative energy does not mean pollution free energy. Look at the monster ethanol we have already created. Beef is going to cost more because corn costs more; can a man have a steak or not.

It is time to build nuclear plants and in the meanwhile develop renewable clean energy sources.

Guest kctay

Great post AKK, from reading this thread, it is apparent that most get their information regarding "climate change" from the media and pure emotion, and not from actually reading books on the subject. There are many great books, by paleoclimatologists, and climatologists that are very informative, and eye opening. One of these books is "Shattered Consensus", written almost entirely by scientists, paleoclimatologists, and climatologists. The problem is; not many people take the time to read, and understand this complex topic.

It is also unfortunate that many liberals simply accept the concept that man is responsible for our increasing global temperatures because it fits in with their grand scheme that cars, and industrial man are bad, and must be eliminated.

There are some facts that we know regarding global warming. Co2 is present in increased amounts during a period of warming. However, from 1940, to 1975, during that centuries biggest cooling period, Co2 was also present in increased amounts. So does CO2 cause warming, or does it cause cooling? In 1896, the global temperatures were higher, than they were in 1996. The hockey stick graph was proven incorrect in 2004, due the data used, Al Gore still uses that graph to this day. The data used ignored the Medieval Warming Period, and the Little Ice Age. Temperature changes observed through the atmosphere (not just at the surface) are clearly different than what has been projected to occur. And disparities between observed precipitation and the simulations of computer models can be off by several hundred percent.

Hysteria rather than rationality has taken over our discourse regarding climate change. A steady flow of propaganda is stampeding the country into an unwise, expensive course.

The beauty of science is that truth is determined by observation and not by consensus. The seemly endless press releases, commentary and resolutions claiming a consensus for the anthropogenic climate change hypothesis is scientifically meaningless.

Bikeman982

Whether or not man is causing global warming is debatable. One thing is clear, we are all stewards of our planet and must make great effort to insure it continues to support our existence. To destroy our inhabited environment intentionally is insane.

How true. It's my understanding that the upper class used to live more inland and up on the hill rather than on the water. I believe that the reasons were twofold. They could look down on the peasants but were also safe from the power of an angry ocean.

Also, as much as we want to decrease global warming, why are we not making adjustments as opposed to trying to fight nature. Is it necessary for us to live along coastal areas so that we can have the ocean view. Get inland, please. I live in Florida but I bought my house more than 30 miles inward from the sea.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XttV2C6B8pU

I just came across this video yesterday (its 76 minutes long, so you need high speed internet). I've seen "An Inconvenient Truth", which presents a very biased, pro-global warming side. After seeing this video, which presents a very biased, anti-global warming side, it allows me to really get a good idea of the subject as a whole from a broad spectrum. I think this is the point people today are missing. People today are becoming mindless automatons, especially when it comes to the media. They watch something trumped up with the word "documentary" and take it as religious fact without looking at the opposite arguement. If you watch Al Gore's movie and leave it at that, you might as well begin watching Michael Moore's obnoxious movies. I don't think it's right of Gore to not present opposing arguements like solar radiation and Sun spot influences. The same goes with hardlined anti-warming believers who wont even budge their position on global warming. The problem is that no one is standing up to these people and telling them that what they are doing by presenting biased, one-sided information, is wrong.

I'm an environmentalist, but I also have my own mind. I don't need to be told what to think, or spoon-fed my food. I support emissions restrictions, but not because of global warming. Pollution and harmful emissions causes increased respiratory damage, higher cancer rates, and other health risks. This is a FACT that has been scientifically proven beyond any doubt. Global warming is a THEORY, not fact. Until a concensus can truely be made, I will continue to educate myself on the matter and leave global warming as a possibility in my book. I would hope the rest of you do the same.

"Global Warming" is a very simple test for moron status. If you believe in it, you are one.

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