What Will 20k New Troops In Iraq Do? - Everything Else - Corolland: the Toyota Corolla Forums

Nothing? Something? Everything? Gaze into your own crystal ball and let us know what you find...

Squat.

I am tired of our boys and girls dying because some country that I could care less about still doesnt know how to run a government after we have helped them set one up.

I voted for Bush, but he has really been disappointing me lately.

If you don't like the fact that we're fighting the war against Iran in Iraq, you'll like it less if we lose! Can you say "Ten bucks a gallon?" Well, you'll call that the "good old days" if we let the Middle East turn into a radical Islamic enterprise.

Don't like fighting for oil? Then stop using it!

BTW -- look around you, and begin systematically eliminating everything from you life that wasn't produced or transported to you as the result of the consumption of crude oil at affordable market prices. Still don't want to fight for oil? IMHO, it's about the only thing WORTH fighting for these days!

Go ahead -- debate me about this! Prove me wrong!

That's exactly why we need to get serious about finding an alternative source of energy. GM is leading the charge in the auto industry. They just came out with a electric-hybrid that you can plug into a house-hold electric socket. If you make short trips, like than something like 20 miles a day, you theoretically will never have to go to the gas station. There is also a new car manufacturer (forget the name) that is coming out with a totally electric car. It looks bad ######, like an exotic Italian race car. This company is expecting to roll out more electric cars that are price competitively with gasoline ones from tradition gasonline-based auto makers. Then, there is fuel cell, of couse. The long term solution to our energy problem is not raging endless wars to secure our supply of oil. It is alternative energy. And that's speaking nothing of the impending catastrophy of global warming.

Nothing? Something? Everything? Gaze into your own crystal ball and let us know what you find...

My Prediction.

When the 20k troops shows up in Bagdad and the US troops starts cracking down, the Madi Army (Sheeit Insurgency) will simply evaporate into their community like the Saddam's Iraqi Army did in 2003. When the American troops leave, the Madi Army will come out and cause trouble again. My point is they will not fight the tradition pitch battle with US troops, i.e., all or nothing battles. If US troops starts rounding Iraqi men up left and right, the world media is going to make the US military the oppressor of poor Muslim like Israel.

Now, the real question is how long are we going to maintain a large presence of troops in Iraq? How long can we afford the material cost and human casualties of this president's war?

i dunno about you guys but since the word went out taht they are sending new troops there gas prices here dropped around 30 cents, hmmm haha

This troop increase only proves American and Western singled-minded thinking that the "bigger guns" wins. What Americans fail to realize is that this is no longer an American war. Yes, we went in there, we removed Saddam, but that's the extent of what we can do with all our technology and numbers. You could put in 500,000 troops like we did in Vietnam and it wont make a single difference. This is their war, this is Civil War. Its very close-minded Capitalist thinking to believe that waving a couple billion dollars around is going to win the War on Terror.

What people in America need to understand is that until WWI, there was no "Iraq" and there were no such thing as "Iraqis". The reason why we are losing so badly is because Americans don't understand a damn thing about the Middle East.

Here is a quick history lesson:

Iraq, Palestine, Syria, Saudi Arabia, and dozens of more countries are all inhabited largely by a collective people called Arabs. NOT ALL ARABS ARE MUSLIM! Arab is an ethnic term. You need to understand that Iraq, Jordan, and many other Arab nations are artificial nations created after WWI to control their oil. Islam has many divisions, the two most prominent being Shi'a ("Party of Ali") and Sunni ("People of Tradition"). The Shi'a faith is almost exclusively concentrated in Iran. IRANIANS ARE NOT ARABS! The majority are ethnic Persian, including my mother. In 652, Arabs invaded Persia and destroyed the native religion, Zoroastrian. In spite of Arab rule, Persians maintained their destinctive culture. Eventually, Persians split from the traditional Islam. My theory is that they did this as a means of ethnic identity. Since then, Shi'a has been criticized by the Sunnis as being against god. To get a better understand, see this map:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/a...istribution.jpg

You can see from this map why Iraq is so bitterly involved in a Civil War. The Shi'as in Iraq are Arabs, but Shi'a faith is so closely linked with the Persian-Islamic conflict that they are denounced and considered so repulsive by the Sunni minority in Iraq. Obviously, Iran's regime is very supportive of the Civil War and Shi’a terrorists because right now, Iran is an isolated nation in the international perspective and they want a shi’a ally.

Another thing to understand is Saddam's regime. During the 1st Gulf War, Saddam destroyed the bridges along the Tigris and Euphrates rivers in order to stop the Allied assault. In restrospect it was a major disaster for him because the Shia's in Southern Iraq took advantage of the situation and began a mass uprising. Without bridges, the Iraqi Army couldn’t swiftly move south and put down the revolt. It took Saddam many years after the war to re-establish control over Southern Iraq which is why in the last 10 years, he had been supplying Baathist Sunnis in Southern Iraq with weapons in the event another uprising occurred. Now, these well armed former Baathists are using these weapons against the civilians and American soldiers.

Well that is it for the history lesson. What do I think will happen with troop increase? Nothing. What will happen to Iraq? The same thing that happened to Yugoslavia. The country is going to split up, most likely into a Shi’s nation in the south like Kuwait, a Sunni Iraq in the middle, and a Kurdistan in the north (Kurds are another ethnic group). The only question is how long. Once American troops leave, the nation will tear itself apart. You can’t blame the Iraqi government, Maliki, or its police force. The nation simply needs to resolve its own problems. What happened when America entered into Yugoslavia and tried to stop the Civil War? Nothing. The nation fell apart with or without Western intervention.

Bikeman982

I agree with Larry and texasrolla. We need to protect our world from terrorists and we need to eliminate dependency on foreign oil.

Alternate energy sources are a great way to eliminate the oil rich countries from profiting due to our countries dependency.

What will 20k troops do - not too much, same as what is there. More fighting, more deaths. The battle is to get out with the country ruling themselves and not promoting terrorism.

I'm not american but live here, I think its really sad having all those guys dieing off.

You have lost more in this short war than South Africa lost in a 20 year war against guerilla warefare.

You cannot change something that does not want to be changed, why dont we go to Africa and try to force the Lions to stop murdering the antelope but rather eat the grass?

I think the only way is to either pull out, take over the country in which case you would have to have martial law and constantly blow any your new public, or just keep killing off your army piece by piece.

Injecting more and more troops are not solving anything, if you want to blow the country to pieces, then inject your troops and do it, letting them run around for target practise is not doing this country or anyone else any benefit.

I hope an end comes to it soon.

Sheldon

Bikeman982

It is likely that Hilary will get support because she is touting that we can make negotiations work in Iraq and then we can pull our troops out.

It sounds good, but not likely to happen.

Nothing? Something? Everything? Gaze into your own crystal ball and let us know what you find...

Getting killed? default_laugh It's a matter of time before 20k of them got pwned by suicide bombers and roadside bombs.

That's exactly why we need to get serious about finding an alternative source of energy. GM is leading the charge in the auto industry. They just came out with a electric-hybrid that you can plug into a house-hold electric socket. If you make short trips, like than something like 20 miles a day, you theoretically will never have to go to the gas station. There is also a new car manufacturer (forget the name) that is coming out with a totally electric car. It looks bad ######, like an exotic Italian race car. This company is expecting to roll out more electric cars that are price competitively with gasoline ones from tradition gasonline-based auto makers. Then, there is fuel cell, of couse. The long term solution to our energy problem is not raging endless wars to secure our supply of oil. It is alternative energy. And that's speaking nothing of the impending catastrophy of global warming.

If GM is leading the charge they wouldn't have destroyed the EV1. So we'll see through a skeptical lens.

That car is Tesla. Although it's $92k apiece, they sold out their 2007 capacity and are taking 2008 preorders.

Let's see... There was three fuel cell buses in Vancouver area, but they got retro-modded into diesel hybrids. And it doesn't look like Hy-wire is headed fast enough to production. The closest thing I see at retail is a toy car at Future Shop at C$120 each.

IMO, not much.

Its long past due to get the hell out!

As for gas prices, the Speedway by my office went up $0.20, while the Shell when down $0.02... something's not right... I decided to fill up at Shell, just in case.

Are we fighting for oil? I thought we were fighting terrorism?

As for the comment on reducing fuel consumption by 20%, Toyota is way ahead of the game. Toyota has more hybrid vehicles than all of the other companies combined (or so it seems).

Bit I think in general we are already moving forward. Newer cars use less gas to go the same distance v/s 10yr old cars. 20yr old V8s vs MY08 V8s. there is a world of difference. same thing with 4bangers.

I think that compared to many other countries, in the US, we have cheap gas. In Asia, Europe, even Canada & Mexico have much higher gas prices. as a result, ,more people drive smaller cars. How many 1L engine cars do you see here? none! where as in other continents they are normal.

As for the electric car, the voltz, one of the biggest issues blocking progress right now (according to automotive news) is the battery makers. They need to come up with safer batteries that can hold more charge.

i was going to also start about diesle, but i am ranting now, and getting off the point. i think i will stop.

sorry.

tdk.

AMERICA IS THE 3RD LARGEST PRODUCER OF OIL IN THE WORLD!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crude_Oil#Top...ucing_countries

We produce almost 9 billion barrels of oil each year. There shouldn't even be a need for importation of oil. The reason we are dependent on foreign oil is because we are the most oil consumptive nation in the world at 20 billion each year. We consume more oil than China, Japan, Russia, Germany, and India combined! They are the 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, and 6th.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crude_Oil#Top...uming_countries

Its not that we need to end oil consumption, we produce more than enough oil. Its that Americans are just as fat and lazy as they ever were. Everyone likes to point the finger at that Orange County woman driving a Hummer or that oil powerplant, but its not just them. People don't seem to understand that it takes more than just driving an efficient car, it takes DRIVING LESS. I drive my 98' Corolla perminently at about 28 MPG at just 6,000 miles per year. This year I'm looking to cut back to just 4,000 by bicycling in the summer and taking the train to school more often. It boggles my mind how some people can drive 15,000 or 20,000 or even 25,000 miles each year. There is no excuse for this. Myu sister's boyfriend has a hybrid Civic and acts like he's Mr. environmental, but the idiot drives 20,000+ miles each year, which means he is still consuming more gas than me, not to mention a hybrid Civic uses lean burn which means it releases more NOx gases (a smog agent) than me.

Think about it, even if some stay at home soccer mom drives a Hummer, she is probably only driving to soccer practice and the supermarket, averaging 5,000 miles each year. That means at 10 MPG she is still consuming less gas that most Corolla drivers. I can't stress enough its not just driving an efficient car, but driving less.

Brendon,

It's not our fault that the closest Walmart is 10 miles away and that all the nearby local grocery stores have gone out of business. It's also not our fault that we get laid off from a job that is within bicycling distance and that we ended up with a new job that is 30 miles away from home.

Its more than just distances. Dozens of other industrialized and unindustrialized nations out there live on a fraction of oil as we do. There are solutions, but Americans don't want to use them. Carpooling, buses, trains, bicycling, or even ultra efficient modes of transportations like motorcycles or mopeds. It would be nice if non-oil modes of transportation existed, but they are many decades away, thanks in no small part to GM's destruction of the EV.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/2/21/Evcrushed.jpg

This picture makes me want to cry default_sad

Anyone ever seen a documentary called "Who killed the Electric Car?". The genocide of the electric car was the greatest tragedy of the 20th century next to WWII. We really should put a couple of GM's executives on trial in Nuremberg.

I'm sure if I didn't use these public transportation options, my car's mileage too would peak up to 10,000 miles or more. It just makes no sense to me why Americans have this locked mindset that their car is their freedom and that anything infringes upon that is anti-American. That is why our country's public transportation system is so poor, because no one wants to use it unless they feel like they have to. In many ways, I wish gasoline prices would peak to $10 per gallon. It might wake up alot of people.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/2/21/Evcrushed.jpg[/url]This picture makes me want to cry

Anyone ever seen a documentary called "Who killed the Electric Car?". The genocide of the electric car was the greatest tragedy of the 20th century next to WWII. We really should put a couple of GM's executives on trial in Nuremberg.

Yes, its a very informative film...and shocking...still with no explanations why the EV-1 was scrapped by GM-Although alot of speculation ( oil companies) - there's still a trillion barrels of oil still in the ground..over 100 trillion dollars of unsold material in the ground, and countless $$'s in IC engine products ( lubricants, filters, etc) ..too much unmade profits at stake.

I recommend every see this movie-out on DVD now:

Trailer-

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6923835633598627078

EV1 Tour by an owner-

Bikeman982

I think the oil companies killed the electric cars.

Let's get them back and put the oil companies out of business!!

I think the oil companies killed the electric cars.Let's get them back and put the oil companies out of business!!

The only way to do that is to convert your car to propane:

www.gotpropane.com

I will be using one of their kits on my DD:

http://www.texasoffroad.net/albums/members...24_61680014.jpg

So would a bomb exploding in a Downtown Framingham pizzeria loaded with college students.

You're obviously well versed on the Middle East Brendon but I don't think you've stated what we should do to resolve the conflict.

As far as commuting goes....it seems so simple when you're young. When you get older, some things are out of your control. Right now, it is all about you. Pretty selfish time of life really. Someday you'll probably get married, have children, inlaws, etc etc. As TexasRolla mentioned, you might have a great job, get laid off, wife doesn't want to move, it's too far away from her mother, kids don't want to be uprooted.......and the list goes on.

These people are hell bent on destroying our way of life. Sorry, I don't know what the answers are but I'm not going to go quietly.

....................................It might wake up alot of people.

You clearly did not read my post in its entirety. I'm not criticizing people for not sitting at home and staring at the walls, as much as I love to do that since I'm young, stupid, and a selfish college student...

Its that American mentality as a whole criticizes public transportation as being beneath them, which is why it is in such a poor condition. That is why when you compare other nations, we consume 4-5 times as much oil. Take the train to work and in-laws, send your children to bus to school, no no we can't do that so we turn the Middle East into our own personal chess game. You call me the selfish one when I'm the only one at my dead-end retail job grapping up all the cans and paper in the trash and recycling it. You call me selfish for riding my bike and taking the train to spare gas consumption. You call me the selfish one when I petitioned management to initiate a recycling program and they declined so they could save $50 a month (the cost of recycling pickup). You call me the selfish one when I volunteer at the homeless shelter in downtown Framingham. Go ahead, nail me to the cross if you want, but don't bother to thank me when my puny contributions hold back Global Warming an extra day.

As for the Middle East, short of dropping the nuclear bomb, I doubt there is much more damage we could possibly do. Just leave them alone, leave Iraq, leave Israel, leave the Middle East, let them deal with their own conflict. Why do you think Islamic terrorism so rampently hates America? Do you see Al-Qaeda vhemently trying to destroy China, or Poland, or Hungary or Argentina? Most nations in the world don't stick their noses in other people's affairs. If Iraq falls to Iran and gas goes up to $10 a gallon, good it will force us to learn about public transportation. If you're an idiot like George Bush you call call al-qaeda madmen and murderers who just want to aimlessly kill people without trying to understand why they attacked us. This "War on Terror" is a big joke. There was a very good movie that came out about 9 years ago (before 9/11) called "The Siege". There is a memorable quote that Denzel Washington says

"What, what if they don't even want the sheik, have you considered that? What if what they really want is for us to herd our children into stadiums like we're doing? And put soldiers on the street and have Americans looking over their shoulders? Bend the law, shred the Constitution just a little bit? Because if we torture him, General, we do that and everything we have fought, and bled, and died for is over. And they've won."

Ever consider the possibility we are giving al-qaeda exactly what they wanted?

Brendon,

The terrorists have already won. If have watched "24", in which people are frequently tortured, you know most American people are OK with torturing, eventhough we know it's a horrible act. The terrorists have been able to turn us into paranoid people who disregard human rights conventions and our own rule of law because we are so scared of another attack. The task of the terrorists were made much easy with the Neocons in charge in the Executive Branch.

Regarding oil consumption, we're simply addicted to fast cars and big SUVs. I consider cutting back on oil consumption a hopeless cause, just like the war on drugs. When people are addicted, they are not going to let it go. That's why we continue to have a huge problem with drug addiction and alcohol addiction despite the huge amount of money spent to combat them. If the Government really got serious about reducing consumption, there will be improvements, but there'll always be alot of addicts who are willing pay big money to satisfy their addiction.

Bikeman982

Anyone can be a critic - it takes someone special to come up with a viable solution.

There is a solution, its called complete and perminent withdrawal. What is wrong is fools who insist on a "safe withdrawal" or a "new solution" to Bush's already lost war. Everyone thought Nixon's Vietnamization was a "safe withdrawal and a "save-face solution". What happened? It caused an already overdue war to drag on an extra 4 years in needless numbers of people killed for no reason. Then what happened after we left? South Vietnam fell in just 2 years and Vietnam became our ally only 20 years later.

This isn't the 1st time governments needlessly send people to their deat for no reason. In WWI on the last 6 hours of the last day, 10,000 people were killed in fighting even though the armistice was already signed and guarenteed. In WWII, 300,000 people died defending Berlin to the very last moment even though everyone knew the war was over. Why is it that governments and people think its so honorable to fight to the very last moment? Is it too honorable to admit you made a mistake? Was it honorable for King Phyrrus to watch his armies die at Asculum or for General Pershing to send his men to their death? I would suggest a great book for everyone to read called "Eleventh Month, Eleventh Day, Eleventh Hour" by Joseph Persico.

You're right Brendon....war sucks but as long as human beings are here on this Earth there will always be the group that wants to conquer all others. I'd rather not be 2nd or 3rd strongest in this world thank-you.

You sound like a very nice person. I'm sorry if you took the "selfish" comment personally. It certainly seems to have struck a nerve with you. My daughter's also spent time in Soup Kitchens as part of their curriculum and I commend them and you for their volunteerism. I was making my point using generalities and I include myself at that age as well. It certainly cannot be used regarding the troops we have in Iraq and Afghanistan or any young person that has volunteered for the military. They ARE special people. I wish I had joined the military as a young person for a number of reasons. I know a number of people ranging in age from 19 to 35 who have done their tour in the sand. Each has emphasized the amount of good that is being done in the country.

Perhaps we use as much oil as we do because no other country in the world has the number of people emmigrating from other countries to ours. Surely that increase would contribute to oil consumption. Or perhaps the countries of Europe are just getting the population numbers back to the 1930s and 1940s era prior to mass genocide by despotic dictators. Say what you wish but another language would be spoken on this continent today if had been allowed to continue.

So what are we going to do? Should we sit down with them? Which one? How about Al Sadr, Iran, North Korea, Darfur, Nigeria, Venezuela?? Would they listen to reason from even our best diplomats?

What about China? They're the biggest counterfeiters of technology in the world.....and we have them building a lot our technology for us. I wonder why there are so many Chinese children being adopted by American families?

It just ain't that simple Brendon. In the end, we're just humans and nobody has all of the answers.

So, in parting.......

A. Don't believe everything you read on Wikipedia....I might have posted it.

B. Don't believe everything you see in the movies.....sad that many people have chosen to believe that Hollywood is the all knowing....just ask the Scientologists that think Tom Cruise is the next Jesus Christ.

C. Go volunteer at a VA Hospital. This happens to be something I plan to do when I get closer to retirement age. I'd like to pay the vets back in a small way for the sacrifices they have made to allow this free exchange of opinion that we are having right now.

D. Wish a veteran "Happy Veteran's Day" every Veteran's Day.

E. See this movie....."Band of Brothers".....watch it 2 or 3 times. It should be required viewing and discussion in all high schools.

I'd like to see your position in 20 years. Many of the flower children of the 60's are just now taking their golden parachutes.

There is a solution, its called complete and perminent withdrawal. What is wrong is fools who insist on a "safe withdrawal" or a "new solution" to Bush's already lost war. Everyone thought Nixon's Vietnamization was a "safe withdrawal and a "save-face solution". What happened? It caused an already overdue war to drag on an extra 4 years in needless numbers of people killed for no reason. Then what happened after we left? South Vietnam fell in just 2 years and Vietnam became our ally only 20 years later.
This isn't the 1st time governments needlessly send people to their deat for no reason. In WWI on the last 6 hours of the last day, 10,000 people were killed in fighting even though the armistice was already signed and guarenteed. In WWII, 300,000 people died defending Berlin to the very last moment even though everyone knew the war was over. Why is it that governments and people think its so honorable to fight to the very last moment? Is it too honorable to admit you made a mistake? Was it honorable for King Phyrrus to watch his armies die at Asculum or for General Pershing to send his men to their death? I would suggest a great book for everyone to read called "Eleventh Month, Eleventh Day, Eleventh Hour" by Joseph Persico.

Ten thousand people dying is not much in the grand scheme of things. We have a very well educated and skilled middle class; and this class is pretty large in number. Even if we were to fight a big war with lots of dead and wounded, we as a nation will probably cope fine.

The military kills and be killed. Soldiers die in war, not matter high hi-tech we make war out to be. When we lament, we are getting too soft. However, fighting must be done with a just cause. WMD is a just cause. To stop a genocide is a just cause. However, freeing civilians from tyranny of a dictator is not a sufficient cause--it is a convenient excuse. Tyranny is everywhere, even in our free society, and that alone is insufficient. Fighting without a just cause is sure to bring defeat in the end.

"What about China? They're the biggest counterfeiters of technology in the world.....and we have them building a lot our technology for us. I wonder why there are so many Chinese children being adopted by American families?"

The biggest threat to the US is not Al Quida, is not Saddam, is not Iran. It's China. AQ will make life a bit bumpy for us, but it's nothing we cannot handle. Even if they were to detonate a suitcase nuke, our 300 million population will quickly recover. Nine-eleven barely put a dint in our economy. On ther other hand, China is very hungry for modernization. They are also very hungry for power. Their hunger is what is going to make 'em surpass us, who are well fed and satisfied by the way, and have their way with us.