Gm Problems

Who say I won't buy Ford or GM? I have a Taurus SES right in my garage.

It used to be a Hertz car, got it at the end of 2001 with 13k miles for only $13k. Well below the wholesale book $15k price. Good deal, but scary how the domestics lose value. I paid $13k for my corolla when it was new, now I can afford a 3.0V6 midsize for the same price.

To be honest, the quality was still not there, tranny was leaking in warranty, tranny range sensor went bad, brown coolant problem, warpped rotors, and now sagging spring in the rear. My corolla that is 6 years older did much better than that and only had tranny seal leaking. Oh, the seat is more comfortable in the corolla too.

I don't know how they are in 2005, but I think they better do better when I am buying a new car next time if they want my business, I want all those problem on my Taurus FIXED.

Well, with all due respect you do take a lot of risks when you buy a rental.

I know enough people who treat rental cars like their own personal demolition derby car. Those tranny probs could be from all the 17 year old kids trying to do neutral drop burnouts when their parents car was in the shop, etc.

Who say I won't buy Ford or GM? I have a Taurus SES right in my garage.

It used to be a Hertz car, got it at the end of 2001 with 13k miles for only $13k. Well below the wholesale book $15k price. Good deal, but scary how the domestics lose value. I paid $13k for my corolla when it was new, now I can afford a 3.0V6 midsize for the same price.

To be honest, the quality was still not there, tranny was leaking in warranty, tranny range sensor went bad, brown coolant problem, warpped rotors, and now sagging spring in the rear. My corolla that is 6 years older did much better than that and only had tranny seal leaking. Oh, the seat is more comfortable in the corolla too.

I don't know how they are in 2005, but I think they better do better when I am buying a new car next time if they want my business, I want all those problem on my Taurus FIXED.

Well, with all due respect you do take a lot of risks when you buy a rental.

I know enough people who treat rental cars like their own personal demolition derby car. Those tranny probs could be from all the 17 year old kids trying to do neutral drop burnouts when their parents car was in the shop, etc.

When I go to the Taurus car club forum, people's review are generally good as the statistic shows that Ford finally fixed the tranny problem that kills 95% of all Taurus. They also agree that it comes too little too late, as 2005 will be the last year for them.

Acura and Honda on the other hard, are doing far worse than Ford in auto tranny. if you look around 2nd Gen TL and Accord V6 they have massive tranny problem that even 150k warranty is not placating the customers. I have seen on the forums that some are having the 6th or 7th tranny rebuilt and they still haven't got it fixed. Only when they detune the engine to lower power during shift and at high rpm did they fixed it.

At least the 80s and 90s Taurus have tranny that last 70-80k miles.

in short, i work hard for my money and i am going to put my automotive $'s into what is going to give me the best return for the buck. as far as quality and longevity, you just can't do any better then toyota. i don't feel un-American at all. i'm patriotic to the core. if and when us car manufacturers can build cars on par with the excellence of toyota, i may consider buying one. until that day, no dice detroit. i've thrown away too many years and money on chevys. i finallly got smart and switched. plus as others have said, many imports are now built over here using our parts and workers. my first corolla was built in japan and now my 05 was built in canada. i'll still salute my flag any ole day week and happily fill up my gas mizer corolla and drive off into the sunset. that's the beauty of America-it's a free country.

A similar arguement could be asked of Australians.

Back in the 1960s-80s we had a booming local car industry. Each capital city [sydney, brisbane, adelaide, melbourne, perth] had a GM factory. Melbourne, sydney and brisbane had ford factories. Back then OZ made big cars, large cars, luxury cars, sports cars. Only thing is the industry was protected by a huge 35% tariff on imported vehicles; in effect they held most of the market without the need to compete. However, things went belly up so we have now gone from 15 plants to 4. Now in 2005 the tariff is 5%. Ford and Holden designs are only now panting into the 90s. Quality-wise type 'commodore' and 'problems' into google and see what you get. The Gen3 V8s are crapping out at 15,000km. During Wheels COTY testing, the falcon - that won - BROKE DOWN!! After being protected for so long local designs have lost their competetive edge. In addition when the corolla became fully imported in 1999, it was the end for locally built small cars.

My dad has mostly had a holden - he got a '66 utility, a '74 torana, an '83 camira [aka cadillac cimmarron] and now he has a '00 commodore. It has a dodgy air-con, falling off trim, dodgy electrics...........but is nonetheless happy with it.

GM has been making boring, uninspired and down right butt ugly cars for some time now

Hmm... I like my Corolla but even I'd say its pretty boring, uninspired, and some would say down right ugly... Same goes for the Camry and most of Toyotas other lineup.

Toyota sells cars by being unoffensive. They build cars that aren't especially fast, but can keep you moving, don't drive especially well, but keep you out of trouble, don't stand out, but aren't ugly. Basically they make appliance cars, something you can buy which will get you from A to B without you having to worry about anything. I guess thats what America wants right now.

GM and Ford might have problems but they don't come from building crappy cars. I actually like a lot of their newer offerings... IE the new Cobalt seems to be put together at least as good as my Corolla and it drives nicer. Their problems have more to do with unions, bad management, and all that other crap.

I love the new Toyota styles but then again everybody has their own opinion.

I partly agree with Whistler.

The Japanese are milking the so-called 'quality gap' that allegedly exists between them and the domestics for way too long. They use it as an excuse to over-charge for their cars.

I like my Corolla, and I think it is pretty bullet-proof, but honestly, I don't think there's any trick to making a car like this, and I don't think the Americans are that far off in quality anymore, if they ever were. I'm sorry, I just can't see how a Corolla can elicit any passion; it's nothing more than a utilitarian car, and talking about styling, c'mon! It's plain at best.

That having been said, the American makes, especially GM, are generally not attractive at all, if not ugly (to wit the Aztek, Sunfire, actually all Pontiacs, Olds, Buicks).

But honestly, the Japanese makes are nothing more than not-so-cheap knockoffs of Euro style, with results that are not as beautiful.

Modern Japanese cars are a reflection of the derivative culture of their country of origin. There is nothing original there. Just as the people in Japan have adopted all the collectivist, consumer-mad and globalist excess that western culture has come to represent (ie. most of the stuff that is bad about the West), their car designs are nothing more than repetitive, bland, cookie-cutter rip-offs with no uniqueness or identity of their own.

Good quality? Yes. But reinventing the wheel, or creating something to be passionate about? An authoritative NO.

Agreed Tinto. Acura looks like BMW and Lexus looks like Benz. I'm sure that's no coincidence.

Camilla! Which Scion do you think looks like her? The little xA looks to me a bit like a Mini Cooper or shrunken Matrix, the xB a breadbox, and the tC quite like what the Celica should have looked like...very nice, that one.

Its very true that a lot of Japanese cars use styling that is very Euro inspired.

I understand why too... ever look at some of the weird cars they sell only in Japan? If that is "Japanese" styling, it would NEVER sell in North America.

So, they take something they know sells to us, ie European and American styling, give it a tiny bit of Japanese flavour, and bam you have "Japanese" North American styling.

When asked why I buy Toyota rather than GM, Ford, or Chrysler I respond that I am patriotic but not stupid.

I hope that the American automobile industry will some day wake up and smell the coffee. I fear it would take one of the formerly big three going belly up for that to happen and that's not likely to transpire because the politicians beholden to industry and/or labor unions will prop them up as they did for Lee Iacoca.

I don't care if a vehicle is capable of traveling at speeds that only an idiot would pursue outside of a banked oval track or the Great Salt Lake flats. I know what I'm driving is not going to get me l**d, despite the underlying message in the TV commercials. I don't feel sufficiently inferior that I require 300 horses to make me feel okay with myself.

I like to think that I make rational choices when I spend $15-20K. I'm buying transportation and demand that it be reliable and relatively inexpensive to use. In my experience, Toyota has always met those criteria.

Terry

The Japanese are milking the so-called 'quality gap' that allegedly exists between them and the domestics for way too long. They use it as an excuse to over-charge for their cars.

Also, in some ways, Toyota quality is still better and depending on the car, a lot better. A Ford Focus or a Chevy Colbot will not hold up as well as a Corolla. A Ford Taurus or 500 will not hold up as well as a Camery. It just isn't going to happen. Not if you compare the whole production year from Ford to Toyota. Domestics will almost always start burning oil sooner and water pumps and other items will almost always fail first on a domestic.

The big three just rush too many cars to production and change models and body styles too much. Toyota and Honda keep it more simple, and keep the same ideal on the table when they revise a car. The Corolla and Camery have a great history and they have proven themselves over and over again.

Now, when a American car company gets it right, the cars do hold good value and sometimes even go up in value. A good mustang will hold some good value and a 5.0 Cobra can cost 25-30K. Corvetts hold value and a ZR1 will still cost a LOT of money. Even the GMC Thyphoon cost a lot of money still.

I'm looking to get a v6 mustang this year to replace a CRX. I don't hate domectics, but I will never buy a plain jane car from Ford or GM. They will loose value like crazy, design is changed too much, and the style, and newness of the car will fade so quickly. In a few years, it might still be decent transportation, but that's about it. Many owners who financed will likly owe more then the car is worth.

I am sorry to say that Gm and Ford produce garbage. Japansese vehicles are priced higer not because they like to charge more or due to the fact e they are abetter product but because of pressure from the Big three in the early nineties when the big 3 were losing market share and went crying like sissies to the Uncle Sam asking for protection. Instead of improving their product quality , design and engineering which they have proven they cannot they resorted to protectionist polices. Thats the reason japanonese cars are priced higher and they had to build manufactruing facilities on US soil inorder to avoid high tarriffs.

In the early 90's the federal government tried to put pressure on Japan to increase sales of american built vehicles in Japan. Nice joke. Does that make any sense to anyone?

Gm and ford are still in business because of fleet sales and government sales or else they would have closed down a longtime back. They still survive also due to their full size pickups which the japs have just gotten into.

If Toyota comes out with their diesel engine line up on their trucks then ford and Gm will be in ER on life supprt in no time.

everybody wants value for money. Thats why once you buy a Toy or Honda you don't go back to a GM or ford. Its survival of the fitest.

Most of the parts on harleys are made in Japan but its assembled in USA.

market forces determine what sells and why.

Protectionist trade policies hurt the industry in the long term.

Ashish

It is interesting that Japanese cars are not that successful in Europe. Europeans don't buy them as much as their own cars. How many Germans buy Toyotas?

The European cars are not nearly as good a value for the money as Japanese cars. Price is much higher and reliability not nearly as good. Yet Europeans prefer their own vehicles.

Why is it that Americans buy Japanese cars and Europeans generally don't?

Are Americans smarter? Are Europeans more patriotic? Or more narrow minded to think that only their own cars are any good? Germans tend to think that they make the best cars even where there is evidence to the contrary.

May be this kind of thread belongs on some kind of a NATIONAL/PATRIOTIC WAR BOARD..............

What is the purpose of this thread?

Put one kind of people down? PUT AMERICANS or somebody else down?

Why don't we go to CNN or BBC and ask them this question?

Last time I checked this board was to discuss Corollas problems/facts/opinions, not for a political debate BETWEEN TWO CONTINENTS.

FACT is, TOYOTA/LEXUS is the best consumer product out there and it is also a global economy, if somebody wants to live in the past, then it is their problem..... I can go on for hours on this but it would be of no use................

WHEELS OF THE BUS GO AROUND AND AROUND.

It is interesting that Japanese cars are not that successful in Europe. Europeans don't buy them as much as their own cars. How many Germans buy Toyotas?

The European cars are not nearly as good a value for the money as Japanese cars. Price is much higher and reliability not nearly as good. Yet Europeans prefer their own vehicles.

Why is it that Americans buy Japanese cars and Europeans generally don't?

Are Americans smarter? Are Europeans more patriotic? Or more narrow minded to think that only their own cars are any good? Germans tend to think that they make the best cars even where there is evidence to the contrary.

http://www.theautochannel.com/news/2005/01/15/004953.html

I am sorry to say that Gm and Ford produce garbage. Japansese vehicles are priced higer not because they like to charge more or due to the fact e they are abetter product but because of pressure from the Big three in the early nineties when the big 3 were losing market share and went crying like sissies to the Uncle Sam asking for protection. Instead of improving their product quality , design and engineering which they have proven they cannot they resorted to protectionist polices. Thats the reason japanonese cars are priced higher and they had to build manufactruing facilities on US soil inorder to avoid high tarriffs. In the early 90's the federal government tried to put pressure on Japan to increase sales of american built vehicles in Japan. Nice joke. Does that make any sense to anyone?

 

Gm and ford are still in business because of fleet sales and government sales or else they would have closed down a longtime back. They still survive also due to their full size pickups which the japs have just gotten into.

If Toyota comes out with their diesel engine line up on their trucks then ford and Gm will be in ER on life supprt in no time.

everybody wants value for money. Thats why once you buy a Toy or Honda you don't go back to a GM or ford. Its survival of the fitest.

Most of the parts on harleys are made in Japan but its assembled in USA.

market forces determine what sells and why.

Protectionist trade policies hurt the industry in the long term.

Ashish

You have a one sided thought burned into memory to just say GM and Ford produce garbage.

I don't like the fact that the big three are always making changes, tring different things, and just making cars that never amount to anything to remember. They spend too much time replacing outdated cars with new names instead of keeping a name alive. The focus replaced the escort. The ford 500 is replacing the taurus. A car that once outsold the camery and accord. GM had to drop oldsmobil and buick is next. You can only make so many cars with the same platform. The public noticed that it was all the same old stuff with a different look. That look was nothing speacial either.

Now, to say something good about American cars. When they get it right.

The Corvette is older then 50 years old and still running strong.

The Mustang blew away everyone when it came out and it is still very popular and selling like hot cakes now days.

Carol Shelby helped Ford build a race car to beat Ferarri and they finally did it three years in a row. He has also created one of the hottest roadsters of all time and helped to create really fast Mustangs. He isn't as involved as much now days, but in 07 the US will get a GT500 Shelby Cobra Mustang. If you wanna call that crap, you better not let anyone else hear you. You might acually get a beating for that.

Classic Mopar cars can fetch 100K+ at auctions.

Even modern day fast domestic cars can bring in some nice cash. Cars like a Grand National, Corvette ZR1, Dodge Viper.

For the most part, American's seem to only care about making good sports cars. However, trucks hold up well, Jeeps take a beating and they keep running.

For the most part, I don't think the big three really care about making a great economy car that runs forever.

My Dad and I had an interesting discussion about why the American Car Manufacturers (G.M. and Ford) are losing it big time yesterday on the way home for work.

I said there were 4 reasons:

1) They don't make a product that is as reliable as a Toyota.

2) They don't make a car that is even desireable unless they pratically give it away.

3) They have aimed many of their products at the wrong market.

4) They are too reactionary.

My examples to back up these four reasons were as follows:

1) Two neighbors buy a new car on the same day. One has a 2005 Camry, the other a

2005 Taurus. Both owners maintain their cars equally. In the first 3 years of

ownership, the Taurus needs 7 or so warranty repairs. The Toyota might need 1.

Shortly before 100k, the Taurus begins to nickel and dime the owner to death. It

needs a new something every month. The Camry just needs regular maintenance.

2) Again two neighbors buy a new car on the same day. One buys a 2005 Mazda3,

the other buys a 2005 Focus. The Mazda has a stunning, high quality interior. The

Focus does not. The Mazda has a manumatic transmission, the Focus doesn't. The

Mazda has a bigger engine with better acceleration and similar fuel economy. The

Mazda has a better warranty, and the list goes on. Why did the neighbor buy the

Focus? Because there was a $3000 rebate on a $17000 car.

3) Caddy makes cars like the new SRX, STS, CTS. They all look great, if you're 20-30.

The problem is that they cost so much that they should be aimed at the 60-70 year

olds. The problem is that 60-70 year olds don't want a car that looks so new edge

and lacks many traditional Caddy features like a V8.

4) Ford and GM spent a lot of dough to roll out these SUVs. Meanwhile they neglected

their entire car lineups. Then when gas hits $2.00 a gallon, they don't have a car

that is good enough for most people. So, the rush some half-assed, virtually

untested car to market, and it is plagued with problems and isn't up to standards.

It's like Car and Driver once said, "Wow, Ford Finally got it, the 2000 Taurus is finally

as good as a Camry, a 1987 Camry."

Another thing that will hurt the US Auto Industry is that the high profit luxury market will have the bottom fall out in ten or so years. The 70+ year olds whose time to buy cars is fast closing may have the notion that "you haven't arrived if you're not in a Caddy". However, the baby boomers and their children don't. Personally, I think a Lexus says, "I've arrived" better than a Caddy ever could. A Caddy is still a GM car, but with leather and extra sound deadening. It still has crappy build quality and reliability concerns. It has style over substance, and it's gaudy. The Lexus is refined, built on a superior platform, built to percise standards, fitted with some of the world's most reliable componets, and dripping in Luxury. Not only does the Lexus let people know that you've arrived, but it does it without gaudiness, and what it really says is that you had the taste to choose a car with style and substance instead of overpaying for a car thats only merit is a gaudy exterior.

Anyone that says there isn't a difference in quality of design, fabrication and reliability hasn't driven a GM or Ford product. I regularly travel on business and a FOrd Taurus, Chevy Malibu LS or Chevy Impala aren;t even in the same league as my Honda Accord.

My 4 Cylinder Accord feels faster wiht it's 5 speed automatic than the too tall geared Malibu and Impala with V6's and 4 sped auto's. They ride is more refined on the Accord as well. There's more cheap, poorly shaped plastic inside the GM & Fords.

I recently read that Toyota may actually raise it's prices to help GM from it's sales slump. I think Toyota is fearing political backlash if they grab too much market share. Toyota is already near full capacity in many of it's plants anyway and can afford ot raise prices, increase overall profitabilit and increase it's re-investment in next generation technology all without selling more cars.

The ford 500 is replacing the taurus.  A car that once outsold the camery and accord.

I hate to tell you this, but all those years in the 1990's that you say the Taurus outsold the Camry and Accord don't exist. Ford never sold more Tauri than Toyota did Camry to consumers.

 

We had a 2.2L 4 cylinder '92 Camry that could tow a 2000lb trailer better than our '89 Taurus wagon with the larger 3.8L V6 because the suspension and transmission were total junk.

In America, we don't reward our fellow countrymen for shoddy, inferior work. In America, it's considered very smart and patriotic to reward excellence and avoid junk, regardless of the location of the corporate headquarters - Tokyo or NY.

In America, we don't reward our fellow countrymen for shoddy, inferior work. In America, it's considered very smart and patriotic to reward excellence and avoid junk, regardless of the location of the corporate headquarters - Tokyo or NY.

What is good for General Motors is good for America. While a hackneyed slogan, there is some truth to it. A country which builds nothing is a poor country indeed.