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Ellis

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That's why we have this forum - anyone can post what they believe is useful info.

 

I'm pretty sure that most people here are smart enough to make their own decisions - they can choose to agree or disagree with a particular post or posts, using their own past experience and judgement. No need to make up anyones mind on a subject.

 

No need to smack each other around or bash someone's post for any reason.

 

If anything - the "sludge" attention has probably motivated some people to take better care of their vehicles, take an interest in making sure they change their fluids and make sure it is done properly.

 

Ignorance and speculation are probably the two worst things that one can take on "sludge" - be it an issue or non-issue. Just like the NIKE commercial tagline - just Do it. Properly maintain your car and you expect good results - if it doesn't, that's why you have a warranty.

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Guest CWright

Hey. I am here for information too and def not to bash anyone else. Most everyone has something beneficial to contribute and has their own opinion. I am sure learning a lot. Carry on but let's be nice

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Last I heard - she is working over Dodge for sludge related problems. I believe she also moved but still in the state - as I also live in Northern Virigina, just a little distance away. These statements are untrue.
Interestingly enough, "fishexpo101," it seems that you are a bit confused....but most likely intentionally so. The propaganda is very calculated, isn't it?

 

I can only assume that you are referring to me regarding Dodge sludge. You, "the source," and "urconscience" are carrying out quite the anti-sludge activist campaign! It would appear that you are disgruntled about the fact that there are SIGNIFICANT NUMBERS of Toyota owners interested in seeking JUSTICE in the sludge FIASCO (that is, Toyota-induced debacle!). It is also clearly evident that a smear campaign has been carried out since day one against me or anyone associated with me who EXPOSES corporate injustices.

 

I want to point out to you and the other two that DEFAMATION is ILLEGAL. Yes, you left my name off.....wisely so. However, you have made many inferences by including some information associated with me and only me. The use of name-calling is unconscionable, but you know that and do it anyway.

 

The truth is that Toyota DOES have a major issue with SLUDGE. Indeed, this sludge IS found in the Corolla as well. It would seem that Toyota is fighting hard to NOT include the Corolla in any sludge program? Why the recent resurgence in anti-auto consumer advocacy? Why the obsession with mud-slinging directed at ME? Why the continuation of the lies that have been perpetuated from day one in an effort to DISTRACT READERS from knowing the TRUTH in the Toyota sludge debacle?

 

Between you, me, and the fence post, EVERYBODY knows about Toyota sludge! Why, even TOYOTA has admitted the predisposition of its own vehicles to sludge build-up! The valve cover of these engines has been implicated and sure enough, sludge is often seen first when the cover is removed.

 

So, how do you think anyone will trust your insinuation that "me, myself, and I" started some "sludge hoax?" What kind of malarky is that?!? Let me refresh your memory.....I was NOT the first to discuss Toyota sludge on Edmund's Town Hall. This discussion began long before I entered into the dialogue! Mr. Steve Weiss tried desperately to do more for the Toyota owners as a group. Toyota scoffed at his claims and refused to admit anything was wrong with these engines. Mr. Weiss was far from alone. There were many vocal Toyota owners on Edmund's and elsewhere.

 

Yet.....I am the one you are blaming. There is a claim that not only did I start some "hoax," but that I also did so "maliciously." If I were you, I would reconsider having this posted online. There is clear inferential evidence of who you are publicly defaming. AND....contrary to popular anti-activist belief, I am NOT a public figure. No one has a right to make the claims you have made against me in such a forum....especially without one shred of truth to support these claims!

 

In truth, I have been a supporter of Toyota owners going through this HORRIBLE engine ordeal. My role has been one of information-gathering and supplying. I have gladly supplied auto consumer resources to those in need. There is nothing wrong with this; I will feel no guilt for any of my pro-consumer actions.

 

ENGINE OIL SLUDGE is real! It affects MORE engines that claimed by Toyota. The owners believe that Toyota is limiting its own liability by limiting the models included in the "Engine Oil Gelation" program. It is a no-brainer to understand why it would do this, isn't it? Owners affected believe that $$ comes first with Toyota; customer service is secondary. Frustration abounds because, according to many owners, Toyota doesn't seem to be following through with its offer to *replace sludge-affected engines* When the engine clogs up with sludge and fails, Toyota often tells the owners that the *premature engine failure* is unrelated to sludge. Then, it cannot give a good reason for the same failure!

 

Did this issue every die out? Of course not! My petition was started in March of 2003. How mysterious was it when the very sites that were BUZZING with discussions of Toyota engine sludge at this time suddenly and inexplicably went down (and remain down now!)? POOF! Down goes the Sienna Minivan VMag site! POOF! Down goes "The Complaint Station for Toyota." POOF! Down goes the Cartrackers.com "Forums" under "Toyota!" IP addresses of the defamers (of activists) were tracked and found to be the same people doing the same postings under different identities......the very thing that WE were accused of! Ironic, don't you think?

 

Discussions of high HEAT in the engine breaking down the oil continued when possible. So, too, did discussions of fuel-contaminated and/or glycol-contaminated engine oil. Discussions of deficiencies in the emissions control system were begun as well. This was the TOP topic at "The Complaint Station for Toyota" for months! Toyota was at the TOP of the list of the companies receiving complaint posts. The Edmund's Town Hall site included almost 6,000 posts about Toyota sludge exclusively! Edmund's moved the discussion to "Owner Maintenance" and tried to lead a "general sludge discussion," but the discussion returned quickly to "Toyota Sludge."

 

Still, the naysayers said it was all one big hoax that I started. Little ole me starting a big hoax against a company for no reason at all? Now, THAT'S a good one! Trust me, Toyota would have SLAPP-suited me by now if it could. Hey, maybe it will do so anyway to tie things up in court! BUT....the truth is that I doubt Toyota will want the public spotlight on it in so doing! This would generate far more curiosity....and possibly investigative reporting!

 

The question is, is Toyota condoning this sort of posting by those intent on defaming consumer advocates? What connection does Toyota have to these cyber-insulters and cyber-attackers? How far would a company like Toyota go to SQUELCH any legitimate discussion about problems in its vehicles?

 

I don't know the answer to these questions at this time. I believe that I will know in due time. Since this defamation continues, it behooves me to uncover MORE, not less. Online defamation is not the only tactic being used. Indeed, the sordid "cocktail" of questionable online activities is another more sinister side of this whole Toyota sludge fiasco! What do companies do to make sure that real-world problem discussion (about vehicles manufactured) does not continue or lead to recalls?

 

Ponder this for a time. Perhaps an investigative reporter even partially worth his/her salt will be enticed to do some research into this phenomenon? He/she might well pull the lid off the veritable "can of worms!"

 

Charlene Blake

[email protected]

 

P.S. I kindly ask those who are posting the defamation to stop. I will be monitoring this situation closely.

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Last I heard - she is working over Dodge for sludge related problems. I believe she also moved but still in the state - as I also live in Northern Virigina, just a little distance away. These statements are untrue.

Interestingly enough, "fishexpo101," it seems that you are a bit confused....but most likely intentionally so. The propaganda is very calculated, isn't it?

 

I can only assume that you are referring to me regarding Dodge sludge. You, "the source," and "urconscience" are carrying out quite the anti-sludge activist campaign! It would appear that you are disgruntled about the fact that there are SIGNIFICANT NUMBERS of Toyota owners interested in seeking JUSTICE in the sludge FIASCO (that is, Toyota-induced debacle!). It is also clearly evident that a smear campaign has been carried out since day one against me or anyone associated with me who EXPOSES corporate injustices.

Quite the contrary - your posts and follow ups on several blogs, forums, usenets, etc - show up on quite a few Dodge related sites - there is even a few that point toward early Dodge Minivan ABS systems in the late 90's quite "interesting". (Just Googled it up) You assumed incorrectly that I place you as the instigator of Dodge sludge issue as well - Dodge sludge issues actually been on and off for some time BEFORE you even came on board with the Toyota sludge.

 

I want to point out to you and the other two that DEFAMATION is ILLEGAL. Yes, you left my name off.....wisely so. However, you have made many inferences by including some information associated with me and only me. The use of name-calling is unconscionable, but you know that and do it anyway.

If there is a problem with our posts - this should be brought up with the moderator of the forum. Carefully reread my posts - I allow for both sides. For benefit of ALL posters that post in public forums - in order to prove defamation, you have to be able to prove that what was said or written about you was false. If the information is true, or if you consented to publication of the material, you will not have a case. By merely posting on the forum - you have consented to the publication of the material. No defamation or slander case here - if a post is not agreeable, make it known to the mod and the moderator will handle it.

 

Between you, me, and the fence post, EVERYBODY knows about Toyota sludge! Why, even TOYOTA has admitted the predisposition of its own vehicles to sludge build-up! The valve cover of these engines has been implicated and sure enough, sludge is often seen first when the cover is removed.

Actually - I agree with you 100% on the first sentance. I'll even go so far as saying that EVERY car sold in North America has sludge. Pop the valve cover off every single car out there - and I'll almost guarantee that there is "sludge" up there on the valvecover - does it mean there is a problem, NOPE - normal operation will contribute to that. Even look at my photos I posted on my own Corolla's valvetrain.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v620/fis...tn_P2201485.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v620/fis...tn_P2201482.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v620/fis...tn_P2201481.jpg

Note the "sludge" on the valvecover, VVT-i actuator, and on some of the valvetrain. This all part of normal operation. Also note these photos were when my OCI were 8K-10K (photos right before oil change).

 

Did this issue every die out? Of course not! My petition was started in March of 2003. How mysterious was it when the very sites that were BUZZING with discussions of Toyota engine sludge at this time suddenly and inexplicably went down (and remain down now!)? POOF! Down goes the Sienna Minivan VMag site! POOF! Down goes "The Complaint Station for Toyota." POOF! Down goes the Cartrackers.com "Forums" under "Toyota!" IP addresses of the defamers (of activists) were tracked and found to be the same people doing the same postings under different identities......the very thing that WE were accused of! Ironic, don't you think?

Ironic - not really. Problems were on both sides, people logging in under different identities and spamming forums (cut and pasting information). I've even seen the same person take bothsides with two identities, just to stir up the pot a little.

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A statement made in "Toyotatruthseeker's" remarks, above, would appear to be completely untrue.

It reads as follows: "IP addresses of the defamers (of activists) were tracked and found to be the same people doing the same postings under different identities".

If that is the case, and IP addresses were actually tracked--and individuals identified--this was a highly unlawful act by those who did the tracking and identifying.

That said, it isn't easy to get through Internet Service Provider firewalls, lawfully or otherwise.

There is only one way to do this --legally--one must convince a federal judge to grant a court order to do so.

It would have to be done through a law enforcement agency, if permission was to be granted.

Given the frivolous nature of any request arising from a situation as suggested in this instance, no judge in existence would ever grant such an order.

A fairly sophisicated hacker might be able to track to an ISP location, but these are large regional

servers providing intenet access to a very wide area of population. They don't provide individual locations under any circumstances, and won't unless ordered to by a court. The best most hackers could do would be to say a post came from "somewhere in a region".

 

Statements like that ridiculous claim are just meant to intimidate, and are nothing but meaningless threats.

I suggest that if something like this actually happened, (highly improbable that it did), then those who did it are guilty of a Federal Offence and can be prosecuted.

Those who are party to it are equally culpable, and equally subject to prosecution, so I would suggest if the author of that post had anything to do with it, best not broadcast it.

Either way, the poster is just blowing smoke!!

Edited by urconscience

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fish, i wouldnt even call whats on your valve train sludge. thats normal engine varnish, any car gets that from stuff in the oil sticking to hot engine surfaces. its totally normal and acceptable. i'd be happy if my engine is that clean at 120K.

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fish, i wouldnt even call whats on your valve train sludge. thats normal engine varnish, any car gets that from stuff in the oil sticking to hot engine surfaces. its totally normal and acceptable. i'd be happy if my engine is that clean at 120K.

I absolutely agree Bitter - I would call it more varnish than sludge. Too bad some techs cannot distinguish between the two.

 

Some people get the idea that the engine has to be completely clean - no deposits at all. Regardless of how well the engine was designed or how often you maintain the engine - deposits are going to form, even under the best of conditions.

 

My point with those pics are even if there is "something" stuck to the valvecover and someone may call it "sludge" - doesn't mean there is a problem with it. Even when I intentionally pushed the oil, lifespan wise - I still got good protection from the oil. My valvecover design has the same baffled design as the other engines that afflicted the other "sludged" grouping, same tendancy to become dented by service techs not paying attention.

 

So far so good ~135K down, hopefully more to come - because I plan on giving my son this car when he starts driving about 10 years from now.

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even lawnmowers and small engines (2 strokes as well) get that varnish in them over time, infact its how the oil stains the plastic govener bits in some engines that we can deteremine age, level of use, and if its been ran hard or not. small engine oil temps really dont get high enough to sludge oil so those deposits arent really an indication of the oil getting too hot.

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A statement made in "Toyotatruthseeker's" remarks, above, would appear to be completely untrue.

It reads as follows: "IP addresses of the defamers (of activists) were tracked and found to be the same people doing the same postings under different identities".

If that is the case, and IP addresses were actually tracked--and individuals identified--this was a highly unlawful act by those who did the tracking and identifying.

That said, it isn't easy to get through Internet Service Provider firewalls, lawfully or otherwise.

There is only one way to do this --legally--one must convince a federal judge to grant a court order to do so.

It would have to be done through a law enforcement agency, if permission was to be granted.

Given the frivolous nature of any request arising from a situation as suggested in this instance, no judge in existence would ever grant such an order.

A fairly sophisicated hacker might be able to track to an ISP location, but these are large regional

servers providing intenet access to a very wide area of population. They don't provide individual locations under any circumstances, and won't unless ordered to by a court. The best most hackers could do would be to say a post came from "somewhere in a region".

 

Statements like that ridiculous claim are just meant to intimidate, and are nothing but meaningless threats.

I suggest that if something like this actually happened, (highly improbable that it did), then those who did it are guilty of a Federal Offence and can be prosecuted.

Those who are party to it are equally culpable, and equally subject to prosecution, so I would suggest if the author of that post had anything to do with it, best not broadcast it.

Either way, the poster is just blowing smoke!! This sort of bogus bravado was common during the sludge lady's heyday, and typical of how the campaign was conducted.

 

I had nothing to do with it and I disavow any knowledge of it's existence. I have no idea of the methods used or how the results were obtained. Far be it for me to to do anything of that nature.

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"Far be it for me to to do anything of that nature."

Bikeman, you have nothing to be concerned about. That disclaimer was absolutely unnecessary.

Your integrity is without question here, and your constructive input in these forums is invaluable.

The only people who need worry are those who were doing what the sludge vixen claimed she and/or her associates have done, ie, "identifying" or "tracking" people she claims were using aliases or multiple usernames in various Toyota forums.

If they were doing that, those involved in "identifying/tracking" (aka illegal 'hacking') can be prosecuted.

The sludge lady herself was by far, the most prolific practitioner of using multiple usernames, and made no bones about doing so--except she would always "cry foul" when asked about it!! (she always insisted that her activities were beyond question!)

Doing so in and of itself isn't illegal, but it certainly speaks to the lack of integrity of the person who does it.

Edited by urconscience

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DB1 and Ellis, the information you have posted is quite valid because thousands of Toyota owners never got the infamous "sludge letter" even though their vehicles qualifed for the CSP "Engine Oil Gelation" program. Toyota itself admitted that it did not send out all of the first letters. What it has not mentioned yet is why the second letter did not go out to all affected Toyota owners.

 

It is difficult to attempt to get relief under a program for which you have no information whatsoever. Now that "The Complaint Station for Toyota" (hacked more than once according to the administrators) and Cartrackers.com forums (under "Toyota") are no longer active due to malicious manipulation, Toyota owners don't have many places to go to seek out information. Many owners think this is quite calculated and they wonder who is controlling the sites where owners go to complain about their Toyota problems.

 

The sludge fiasco was no hoax, nor was it blown out of proportion. Toyota came out with a policy in Feb. of 2002 and then a program in April of 2002. Many respected automotive-oriented magazines have published articles about this matter. No one person began the so-called "campaign" for customer justice, but several Toyota owners did link to make the issue more prominent just before the policy and program were initiated. As a matter of fact, the NHTSA got involved, too. Toyota appeased the NHTSA by coming out with the little-publicized program. There has been absolutely NO FOLLOW UP on this program to determine what Toyota is actually doing for its customers, however. Customers reveal that Toyota is slamming the door in their faces when the "sludge monster" hits. Can we say "Deja Vu" to this? Isn't that what got Toyota in all that PR trouble to begin with?

 

Many Corolla owners are having the sludge problem; many Corolla owners are finding premature engine failures which are unexplained. It is the belief of these owners that Toyota should include the Corolla in the sludge program. Unfortunately, Toyota has not yet mentioned the Corolla.

 

I believe that it is an inappropriate use of this web site to belittle other posters as has been done by some of the so-called "regulars" here. I ask the administration to DELETE the posts above that berate other posters. It isn't hard to see which posters are doing this on a continuous basis.

 

Thank you in advance, administration.

 

Charlene Blake

[email protected]

Edited by ToyotaSludgeTruthseeker

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I think this forum is supposed to be full of truths and actual owner experiences. I see no reason why it should include any type of character criticism. We need to stick to just the facts, so that we may form our own opinions and not be swayed, left or right. Let's be civil and just "tell it like it is".

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To add to your comments Bikeman (you are quite correct, BTW), I also suggest it's inappropriate to use this forum as a platform for Political Activism of any sort.

As you said, this is supposed to be a place for individual owner experiences and inquiries.

As I understand, this forum is currently visited by a well known activist whose cause is also well known, and whose participation in this forum and others consistently reflects that cause.

Whether the the intent or purpose of the activism is right or wrong is not the question.

It's the use of alarmist, manipulative, and politically stylized rhetoric, always slanted toward the activist's objectives which becomes the issue.

Using forums like this for promoting organized public or personal vendettas is wrong, and I believe it violates the rules we all agree to when we become participants.

To be fair to all participants, this is not the place where that type of activity should occur.

Individuals thus involved in consumer activism should create their own sites, not use sites like this one to promote their causes.

Edited by urconscience

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Guest CWright

Ellis -- i followed your links and most of your info is good. Sorry but it is correct that some (not all) of the links are not working. One link that is very interesting because it reflects some of the comments i see here is on the Liquia blog link. Below i have a quote from that link.

 

August 25th, 2005

As I mentioned, my post on the Toyota problem had attracted the attention of a dissident, who was quite strident in his support of Toyota. I had hoped that he would bring some real evidence to the table, but alas, what little evidence he had was delivered among profanity and insults. I’ve had to remove a few of his posts to keep the tone civil, but have otherwise let him be.

 

But yesterday, the dissident (one George Jones, apparently from Canada) took a step too far, and impersonated the author of a critical petition, claiming her work was all a fake.

 

The comments are still there; I have no intention of removing the evidence of this person’s vileness. But I did contact the target of the fraud, Charlene Blake, who was happy to pass on information regarding the petition and the extraordinary harassment campaign she’s endured.

 

Jeff, I went briefly to check this George Jones….can’t post now….BUT……he is LYING! I have NEVER added one name to the petition, nor have I signed the petition more than ONCE….the first one! You have someone committing libel on your site!

 

Also, some more interesting information: the petition signatures Jones asserts were fake turned out to be, in fact, fake. But not in the way you might expect:

 

My petition has had many (see all the “deleted” lines) attacks from the SAME individuals who job it is to STOP me. They have not succeeded, however.

 

Get that? They tried to fill the petition with bogus signatures, and then cite the very deletions as evidence that the petition is bogus. Here’s an example of one such deleted “signature” she forwarded to me:

 

MORE PHONY NAMES!! COMPLETE FAKERY HERE!!!! GUESS WHAT? CHARLENE BLAKE HAS RETURNED FROM THE TRIP TO FLORIDA AND HAS STARTED POSTING PHONY NAMES AGAIN. NOTHING WAS HEARD OVER THE HOLIDAY UNTIL YESTERDAY, AND NOW THE CHARADE STARTS UP AGAIN. AFTER NO ACTIVITY FOR ONE ENTIRE WEEK, NAMES START APPEARING TWO AT A TIME. WHO DO YOU THINK WE ARE CHARLENE BLAKE—YOUR ELEMENTARY SCHOOL STUDENTS???

 

This appears to be one battle in a long war against Ms. Blake, in several car forums.

 

Now, I have nothing against Toyota. As I mentioned before, as long as you know what you’re getting into, Toyota vehicles can be a great choice. No one’s perfect, and Toyota certainly has done better in this regard than some. (I note, with glee, that Ms. Blake cut her teeth on Chrysler before taking on Toyota; if only she could have helped me with my trouble-mobile!) I don’t necessarily endorse everything Charlene Blake has ever done, or claim that Toyota is never the victim of deception perpetrated by dishonest customers.

 

But harassment as a response? That’s dirty pool. And when my own blog is used as a conduit of some of that harassment, I get downright angry. Maybe Ms. Blake is the one at fault on all those other car boards and petitions, but I know what happened here, and I know who I’m inclined to believe based on both personal experience and past performance.

 

And what’s worse, these people are meddling in affairs that are none of their business to try and prevent others from getting restitution from harm done to them. If these owners are trying to defraud Toyota, do we really think poor, hapless Toyota is doomed without net.trolls to come to their rescue? Certainly not! And what if the net.trolls are wrong, and they are helping a company defraud innocent private citizens who lost good money over lemons? It would almost be better to learn that the trolls are paid company shills–motivated by mere greed–than to consider that these people did it for the sheer depraved, sadistic pleasure of hurting people.

 

For this post only, I’m modifying the comment policy. Anyone–anyone at all–posting here with even the slightest hint of slander against me, Ms. Blake, or anyone else will find their comment text deleted and their identity exposed to the best of my ability. Don’t like it? Post on your own blog, with whatever comment policy you can stomach. This is what happens when people use my site to perpetrate vileness. And further comments will be disabled on the original post.

 

UPDATE (2005-10-10): Well, that was fun. I suppose I’ve underestimated the tenacity of the “Charlene-Blake-Is-The-Devil” cult. Playtime’s over, kids; time to stalk Ms. Blake somewhere else.

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1. I have spoken to engine designers who have told me that yes, sludge is due to engine design issues - not necessarily within the engine itself but sometimes associated with related systems (e.g. PCV, EGR, heat pockets due to accessory packaging, etc.) Therefore it may not come up during testing and tends to affect individuals differently.

 

2. Sludge can indeed build up to dangerous levels with 3,000 mile oil changes. Synthetic oil is less prone to sludging even when used over much longer intervals.

 

3. If you do not have a "sludge prone" engine and do not drive at the severe service interval, you're not helping anyone by changing oil every three months.

 

4. Blaming the victim is fun especially when they make themselves a big target, but not productive.

 

Closing this thread and expecting more from everyone. I am personally disappointed with the level of conversation at this point.

 

Oh, and by the way, at least one of you uses a randomizer to avoid actual IP address detection...

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