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By chandler, September 1, 2010



I own a 2001 corolla S ATM. I ran Seafoam through TB and let sit for a while. I started the engine up and instantly got a tick or nock that seemed to be coming from the valvetrain. At this time is showed no trouble codes. After about 300 miles and two days later it showed P0302, misfire in cylinder #2. I checked through tons of forums and videos and how to's. I have basically done them all except open up the engine. I have used Rislone to increase the oil pressure to help the hydrolic lifters(later found out the it is not hydrolic but solid and adjusted by shims), ran 1 quart of ATF through engine oil(ATF is a strong detergant) to get varnish off of lifters/valvetrain, ran degreaser through brake powerbooster vacuum line, ran seafoam again through the brake boost vacuum line, swapped ( one at a time to see if code popped up) coil #2 with #1(different banks) and injectors #2 with #1, sprayed two cans of Carb cleaner around vacuum lines and engine to find leaks(NONE), cleaned MAF sensor, Cleaned throttlebody, Check all four spark plugs. These all ended in a P0300 ONCE AND P0302 EVERYTIME AND KNOCK IS STILL PRESENT.

Guys i am at a loss, I am guessing i have a real issue. If i am correct, either i have some serious valve issue on cylinder#2 or worse a rod knock. What do you guys think?

I own a 2001 corolla S ATM. I ran Seafoam through TB and let sit for a while. I started the engine up and instantly got a tick or nock that seemed to be coming from the valvetrain. At this time is showed no trouble codes. After about 300 miles and two days later it showed P0302, misfire in cylinder #2. I checked through tons of forums and videos and how to's. I have basically done them all except open up the engine. I have used Rislone to increase the oil pressure to help the hydrolic lifters(later found out the it is not hydrolic but solid and adjusted by shims), ran 1 quart of ATF through engine oil(ATF is a strong detergant) to get varnish off of lifters/valvetrain, ran degreaser through brake powerbooster vacuum line, ran seafoam again through the brake boost vacuum line, swapped ( one at a time to see if code popped up) coil #2 with #1(different banks) and injectors #2 with #1, sprayed two cans of Carb cleaner around vacuum lines and engine to find leaks(NONE), cleaned MAF sensor, Cleaned throttlebody, Check all four spark plugs. These all ended in a P0300 ONCE AND P0302 EVERYTIME AND KNOCK IS STILL PRESENT.

 

Guys i am at a loss, I am guessing i have a real issue. If i am correct, either i have some serious valve issue on cylinder#2 or worse a rod knock. What do you guys think?

Offhand, my take is too much of a good thing (cleaning) done over too short of an interval. My understanding of Rislone is that its only a 20 weight oil, which would thin it out and decrease oil pressure - but I could be wrong on the weight as I haven't looked at it in awhile. I do know if you thin the oil out too much, or run too many abrasive cleaners, you can get metal on metal contact (lubrication failure), or dislodge a chunk of debris (or sludge) that could find its way into the wrong place rather than the oil filter.

I don't know the cause, but it seems the 'cure' has either worsened things or created new problems. My thinking is a compression and leak down test as you're looking at a mechanical issue that nothing in a bottle is going to fix.

-Spyder

yeah it is just my luck that my OCD for cleaning gets me in trouble. Do you think the issue would be a valvetrain or a issue in the crank case area like blown rings or something. It is is not buring oil or water so that leads me to belive it is a valvetrain issue. Anythoughts? I am going to pull the valve cover off and see what I can find, hopefully what ever is the issue is will be visible or noticeable

P300 is multiple cylinder misfire, and P302 is misfire cylinder 2. Likely either a fuel injection problem or a compression problem (or both). Most of the stuff you ran is hitting both the injectors and entering the combustion chamber. I don't know what kind of shape your engine is in, but the clearances are very tight in the 1ZZ-FE so if something big enough got dislodged from the solvents, it could have found its way into the injection system or in the combustion chamber. You've already ruled out several possibilities (unfortunately, many of them are the cheapest and easiest to fix).

I'd still do a compression and leakdown test. Cylinder 2 might be dead or show very little compression, but only a compression test will tell.

I have a badly sludged 2000 VE 4 spd auto that's also burning oil (about 1 quart every 1,400 miles). It was sludged and had a leak when I bought it, plus lifter tick. Leak is fixed, but the consumption continues. I too nearly resorted to some drastic measures and considered, at various points in the 10,000 km since I bought it, many drastic measures including most of the things you did. In the end I ran a series of very short 2,000 km dino OCIs which initially had no effect. 1 Regane cycle on a full tank cured the lifter tick (I don't recommend this in your situation), and replacing a gummed PCV valve began to very slowly reverse the sludge process. After another 2K OCI on dino, after replacing the valve, I switched to Pennzoil Platinum and have since run another Regane cycle (3k after the first one). I'm going to run the PP for 3-4k (sticking to short OCIs) and introduce about 3 ounces of MMO into the fuel refills, and another 12 into the crankcase toward the end of the OCI.

I've read success stories of people curing, or reducing, consumption by using MMO in the gas (it has both upper cylinder lubricating and carbon cleaning abilities, leading me to believe it succeeds by freeing up stuck piston rings - part of my problem). I'm planning about 4-6 back to back treatments with MMO. At the very end of the OCI, right before the OC, I may also do a piston soak with 1 to 2 ounces of MMO in each cylinder.

I've had the MMO bottle for about a week now and still haven't opened it. I can see the sludge reversing (priority 1) now, but I'm hesitant about introducing potent solvents into the crankcase out of a concern that too much, for too long, will either clean too well, or break up something big enough to create a blockage and do damage where there is none. PP and short OCIs are safest, MMO maybe as a catalyst at some point (in a weaker than typical concentration, as this will avoid thinning the oil out too). MMO in 3 ounce doses will go into the gas tank next fillup, but there I'm playing it safe too (5 ounces is the recommended dose).

Just my own approach with solvents. I could achieve an even more potent effect on the upper cylinder by using ATF in the gas instead of MMO, and contemplated that for awhile too before dismissing it as a bit too risky in a modern fuel injected engine. Seafoam through the brake booster was also debated for awhile too, but dismissed as well as being too harsh (and therefore too risky).

Except for cleaning the MAF sensor and throttle body manually (both of which I've also done), I consider each of the measures you've tried (individually) as too risky for anything other than an old beater that I was planning to scrap, dump, or just didn't want to put any money into. Others have had success with things like Seafoam, but I guess I'm ultra-cautious with solvents. I don't consider varnish bad unless it develops into sludge, but mild cases of sludge can be dealt with by shortened OCIs.

Anyway that's a bit off topic. Hopefully the damage isn't too serious. Absolute worst case scenario you may be looking at a small block rebuild, but hopefully its not anything requiring that kind of intervention.

-Spyder

I'm with Spyder - do a compression test first, to rule out any issues with cylinder #2. If compression is down on that cylinder - you've found your problem.

May I ask, how did you use Seafoam? Pulled it through the engine via vacuum (brake booster line, PCV, etc.?) How much did you pull through and was the engine warm at the time? As if you pulled too much through a cold engine, could have bent a valve.

Rislone is a decent cleaner - exactly as Spyder mentioned, is a thinner (lighter weight) oil with minimal detergent package. The lighter weight aspect means it will get to some areas faster than plain motor oil. ATF is a great dispersant, but not as good as a detergent anymore. The oil passageways in the 1ZZ-FE are pretty tight, a couple of ounces would be OK, but a whole quart - that might be asking for trouble. Problem is ATF tends to thin out the motor oil mix, hence its "sludge/cleaning prowess", dispersant properties keep that stuff from sticking on the walls of the engine - but at the same time, it will increase the likelyhood of metal-on-metal damage. If you have rod knock before, it will likely make it worse, as you've just eliminated the normally present oil film coating/cushion between the bearing surfaces.

Thanks guys, you have a mountain of good info there. Well I poured it through the pvc line the the top of the TB initially then throught the brake booster to remedy the issue, while warm/hot engine. Today I just open up the valve cover and check clearances and anything mechanical that I could check withouth pulling of the timing chain. Clearances all within spec, no lobe flattening/damge, no excessive tension while rotating the crank shaft by hand, mounts look good, slight yellow tint to valvetrain(slight varnish but not thick), timing chain nice and tight(1/8 or less of play when pulling up on chain between cam gears, valve lifters intact and moving up and down appropriately. Spark plugs are now a little white(running hot) but there are not oem, they are cheap copper pluggs with a heat rating 2 when the ngk iridiums are heat rating 5.

Is it normal to have a dark greay metalic grease coming out of some of the seams of the coil boot? Bad coils?

When I get the money i will rent the tools needed for a compression test. I forgot my camera in car, has vids and pics of valve train and engine running. unfortunately the engine was warm so you couldn't hear the tick as well. still sounds like it is coming from the valvetrain, sounds almost directly behind cylinder #2 where the plenum meets intake manifold(I think the plenum is tube from the TB right?)

Any more thoughts, in corolland.com they said it might be a bent rod, they didn't specify but i hope they meant push rod for the valve?

Is it normal to have a dark greay metalic grease coming out of some of the seams of the coil boot? Bad coils?

As long as the coil over plug unit "tube" is still in one piece, it is OK. Mine get that way as well - just clean them up with a rag and all is well.

 

When I get the money i will rent the tools needed for a compression test. I forgot my camera in car, has vids and pics of valve train and engine running. unfortunately the engine was warm so you couldn't hear the tick as well. still sounds like it is coming from the valvetrain, sounds almost directly behind cylinder #2 where the plenum meets intake manifold(I think the plenum is tube from the TB right?)

Try pushing or holding the plastic tube running to the throttlebody - see if the noise gets better or worse. Could be something that got loosened when you were working around that area.

 

Any more thoughts, in corolland.com they said it might be a bent rod, they didn't specify but i hope they meant push rod for the valve?
? Not from Corolland - chances of having a bent rod is pretty remote. No pushrods on this engine - lobes touch the top of lifter "cups" sitting ontop of the valves, unless you ment bent valves. If you got enough fluid in there, that is a possibility. The noise should increase in pace with engine speed and intensity with engine load. What you are describing is pretty typical for the 1ZZ-FE, as they are pretty noisy engines to start with. I'd toss those older plugs when you get a chance and throw in some OEM Iridiums. The 1ZZ-FE engines are pretty picky about plugs, that might help shorten that list of possible suspects for you.

 

 

K thanks for the ideas. I pulled out my tuning fork lol(tie rod end seperator) and put it on multiple places and stills sounds like it is coming from the position i described earlier. front of the engine, top end and behind the plenum(tube from Tb). Vibrations and sound level increases at that point. I don't know if i mentioned but i am not burning any oil, no oil lvl loss or oil on bumber

I think I need a glossary to follow some of these threads: I'm guessing that "MMO" stands for Marvel Mystery Oil, no?

^^^ Correct!

I think I need a glossary to follow some of these threads: I'm guessing that "MMO" stands for Marvel Mystery Oil, no?

Lately it could also apply to part of the Mobil lineup here in Canada. They sell Mobil Super 1000 and 2000 here that are designed and made in Canada, but details are hard to find. I've lately taken to calling them Mobil Mystery Oils.

As an aside, I popped a P0300 one morning myself on startup. The night before I filled with 87 octane instead of my usual 89 and didn't add the tc-w3 that I usually add. I noticed after that fill that engine didn't sound right and (thanks to a new Scangauge II) my fuel economy readings were also well off what is normal for that highway route I took. Next day I refilled with 89 again and added MMO to the gas as I'd already planned instead of the tc-w3. No codes since and engine sounds and feels right again.

I doubt it was the drop in octane. It may have been a bad tank. I'd been skeptical of using tc-w3 or MMO in the fuel previously as upper cylinder lubricants (in that I used them because they were cheap and possibly beneficial, but this type of benefit is hard to quantify). With the low cost in difference between 87 and 89, and same for tc-w3 and MMO both being cheap fuel additives, my skepticism is gone and I've decided to stick with 89 and either additive to the fuel.

To properly address a likely culprit I really need to stop procrastinating on cleaning my IAC valve. Other than a drain & refill on my coolant, its the only mechanical item remaining on my summer maintenance plan.

-Spyder

Chandler, I coudnt get to your facebook vids to listen,

I use to work on radial aircraft engines and a common problem was hydrolic lock.

When the engine was shut down oil would fill the lower cylinders and if you did not check / drain them on starting, when the piston came to top dead center on the compression stroke, the rod would bend( most common , but I have seen broken pistons, bent pins, and whole cylinders "pop"off !

Liquids are not compressible. If you put a whole slug of seafoam in at once and one of the cyliders was coming up on compression ...( well there isnt a whole lota room when the piston is a top dead center).

I am not saying thats what happend, just a possibility( hopefully not).

I remember working on one old truck, every rod was bent . I asked the owner if he knew anything about it( I had a suspicion) he told be that he would run water through the carb to knock out carbon that would cause the engine to ping( the carbon would raise the compression).



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