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By beetz12, September 25, 2009



Hi everyone, sorry if this question has already been asked before. I searched and could not find anything.

I recently did an engine swap on my 99 corolla CE and now my car doesn't start.

All engine harness connectors are attached except for the radiator connection.

A mechanic mentioned that some cars (like mine) won't run unless the radiator is present with water in it. Can someone verify that this is true?

Thanks

Nope - the engine will turn over and start without a connection to a radiator or water in the block. What exactly is your engine doing - does it turn over when you crank the key, just doesn't fire up? Or does it nothing, no cranking, etc.? Need a bit more info.

Nope - the engine will turn over and start without a connection to a radiator or water in the block. What exactly is your engine doing - does it turn over when you crank the key, just doesn't fire up? Or does it nothing, no cranking, etc.? Need a bit more info.

thanks for the reply fish.

The engine cranks fine, but does not start. As soon as I release the key there's total silence.

I am using new spark plugs with new spark plug wires. I am getting sparks, and I have fuel in the tank.

The car has been sitting for a little more than 6 months. I added 4 gallons of 93 octane gas into the tank along with sta-bil.

I also sprayed starter fluid into the TB before cranking but all to no avail.

I think I may do a compression test next. What do you think?

A compression test would be top of my list - if you get fuel and fire, but the engine never catches - either the timing is completely off or there is no compression. You have verified spark, how about firing order? Possible that some varnish has clogged up the fuel pump - crank it for several seconds and see if the plugs get wet with fuel. If hard to tell - may have to disconnect the fuel line under the hood and see if any gas flow/pressure is getting through. Starting fluid should have gotten at least a cough from the engine - even having to travel down the long intake runners.

Did you have some previous knowledge of the donor engine - was it running before you swapped it into yours?

Also forgot to note - you can fire up the engine briefly to check operation, but shut it down right away. Running even less than a minute without coolant will ruin the waterpump.

A compression test would be top of my list - if you get fuel and fire, but the engine never catches - either the timing is completely off or there is no compression. You have verified spark, how about firing order? Possible that some varnish has clogged up the fuel pump - crank it for several seconds and see if the plugs get wet with fuel. If hard to tell - may have to disconnect the fuel line under the hood and see if any gas flow/pressure is getting through. Starting fluid should have gotten at least a cough from the engine - even having to travel down the long intake runners.

 

Did you have some previous knowledge of the donor engine - was it running before you swapped it into yours?

Also forgot to note - you can fire up the engine briefly to check operation, but shut it down right away. Running even less than a minute without coolant will ruin the waterpump.

I performed the compression test today, here are the results:

cyl 1: 90 psi

cyl 2: 120 psi

cyl 3: 120psi

cyl 4: 60 psi

I understand that in a normal engine the compression in each cyl is around 180 psi, is that right?

To answer your questions:

1. The plugs do get wet with fuel

2. The timing is fine, and the spark plug wires are in the proper sequence.

3. I do have fuel pressure, and I verified this by disconnecting the fuel line.

4. The donor engine came from a salvage yard, and the seller said that it ran fine when he got it 6 months ago

Extra info:

The donor engine had apparently been sitting outside for a long time. There was severe corrosion all over the outside, and everything metal has a nice thick layer of rust. When I pulled the plug wires out, it was up to the brim with dirt and debris. However the inside looked clean.

When I crank the car I don't notice any difference whether the fuel pump relay fuse is connected or not.

Thanks again for help

Double check the compression after you shot in a small amount of oil into each cylinder. See how much the compression improves, if at all. But from the numbers, doesn't look very good. The 1ZZ-FE is spec'd to have 218 PSI for pressure. Minimum is 145 PSI with no more than 15 PSI variation between cylinders. That engine sounds like it was already on its way out when it got to the salvage yard. Could be anything from a burnt valve, to broken piston rings, to a heavily scored cylinder wall - any of those would cause an engine to run very poorly if at all. Of course the engine has to be warmed up to get the absolute compression figures - but since you are not able to get it to run, we'll have to look at the relative changes between the cylinder pressures.

You have fuel and fire - have you verified to make sure the timing is OK? Timing chain is still intact because you are reading pressures. But have to take the head off to verify that the valves are OK (could be bent, burned, valve seals chewed up, or valve seats are heavily pitted. ECM and/or wiring can be a possible culprit - but electricals are always a nightmare to diagnose - unless you have a lot of patience.

Wow, so the proper compression in my car should be close to 215. This is probably why the engine is not starting.

A wet compression test is probably a good idea, but as of now I don't have the car anymore. Earlier I had it towed to the shop that sold me the engine, and they are going to look into the issue.

I have not taken the head off to examined the valves. But I did verify timing by placing piston 1 in TDC and checking the timing mark in accordance with the specification. Also when I removed the valve cover, the timing chain looked fine.

Hopefully the shop find out the real problem and make the necessary repairs. I will post updates in a few days.

Thanks again

Double check the compression after you shot in a small amount of oil into each cylinder. See how much the compression improves, if at all. But from the numbers, doesn't look very good. The 1ZZ-FE is spec'd to have 218 PSI for pressure. Minimum is 145 PSI with no more than 15 PSI variation between cylinders. That engine sounds like it was already on its way out when it got to the salvage yard. Could be anything from a burnt valve, to broken piston rings, to a heavily scored cylinder wall - any of those would cause an engine to run very poorly if at all. Of course the engine has to be warmed up to get the absolute compression figures - but since you are not able to get it to run, we'll have to look at the relative changes between the cylinder pressures.

 

You have fuel and fire - have you verified to make sure the timing is OK? Timing chain is still intact because you are reading pressures. But have to take the head off to verify that the valves are OK (could be bent, burned, valve seals chewed up, or valve seats are heavily pitted. ECM and/or wiring can be a possible culprit - but electricals are always a nightmare to diagnose - unless you have a lot of patience.

I am back with an update:

The shop charge me $65 tow and $100 labor to start the engine. They said the valves were sticking and they got them unstuck by squirting oil into the spark plugs while turning the ignition.

I was reluctant to pay the labor charge since the engine was still under warranty, The shop owner stated that because this is not due to a defect in the the engine, this is outside of the warranty.

Well I paid him just to get out of there, but halfway home the engine developed a disturbing chatter/knock.

Here is a video of it on youtube:

 

I told the shop owner about the problem and he will need the car again but there is no guarantee there won't be any additional charge.

I'd like to get you guys' opinion before I take another chance with this guy. Any idea what's wrong?

Thanks for your help.

1ZZ-FE can be noisy - but the noise you have sounds very excessive, even for a high mileage 1ZZ-FE engine - probably sounds worse in person. Sounds like the timing chain is too loose and/or the valves are not operating correctly - could be the valvetrain starving for oil. If the noise doesn't get better once the engine warms up - you definitely have a potential problem on your hand.

Not sure how you can "unstick" valves by squirting in oil in through the sparkplug hole. You can temporarily increase compression or lube the valve guides in that manner, but that automatically means there is an oiling issue on hand, compression is bad.

This guys a regular mechanic or specializes with imports? The 1ZZ-FE has a few "quirks" that are easy to misdiagnose, unless they have experience with this family of engines.

To me, it sounds like a combination of a bum replacement engine + mechanic that is pulling your chain. But that's my opinion. Probably wouldn't be a bad idea to get a second opinion from either a good Toyota dealership or reputable import shop - especially ones that cater to Toyotas.

Thanks for the reply fish.

Did you watch the entire video? I agree the engine is loud, but the specific noise I'm referring to (a flapping sound) only happens halfway into the vid.

Maybe the mechanic said the pistons were sticking, I don't know. But either way, you are saying the low compression readings are not a good sign?

This motor supposedly only has 60k, but based on its condition inside and out, the actual mileage may be many times higher.

If the engine had been perfect when it came out of the donor car, could it have developed these problems just from sitting?

Now I feel I ripped off by the shop, who claimed that the engine was mechanically sound so they can charge $100 for what should have been covered under warranty. And less than 5 miles later, the engine begins to chatter and I don't know know how much longer before it breaks down.

The guy's shop actually specializes in imports, but I don't think he is being hoenst. I will ask him to fix the car for no additional charge, and if he refuses, I may have to sue.

What is your opinion?

Thanks fish for your help.

Your options might be limited - they guy probably gets threatens with suits all the time, so you might be beating a dead horse - so to speak. This also assumes how much time has pass from when he swapped the donor engine in to when you noticed the problem. Even if you take the person to court, the chance of recovering everything is pretty remote - best case might be to recover the cost of the original swap - parts and labor.

Low compression numbers are not a good sign - granted, not a fair test - as the engine should be brought up to operating temperatures to get an accurate reading. But squirting some oil in there will help temporarily seal the rings - so that would give you close to a best case reading. If the numbers are less than 145PSI (218PSI max) or vary more than 15PSI from cylinder to cylinder - you might be looking at some expensive repairs down the line. Each engine is a little different, some show low compression but will last several years, others will seeming start guzzling oil faster than it goes gasoline. Unfortunately, the 1ZZ-FE tends to lean toward the oil guzzling type.

If the engine was perfect when removed from the donor car - even if it sits for 6-months, be perfectly fine. Assuming that the appropriate precautions are taken - protecting the engine for the elements - at the very least, covering it with plastic. Not only do you have to keep moisture out as much as possible, but also keep animals and other debris from entering the various openings. I have several classic cars and my Corolla can see months of just sitting, as I'll be on travel. Zero issues with engine starting or running. Again, each situation is a little different, but it is safe to assume that a well running engine will continue to be a well running engine, even after a reasonable period of inactivity.

I have a feeling that this guy is trying to offload one of those infamous "oil burners" on you. Car will crank over and run - so passes most salvage yard "engine is working tests" - but if someone knows the peculiar ins and outs of the engine, they will know what other problem areas to check out before getting to far into the swap process. The fact that he assumes that your issue was not related to a mechanical problem with the engine (he stated himself that something was stuck, sounds like a mechanical issue to me).

A second opinion is in order here - will have to pay out of pocket for this, but will give you an additional piece of information to go with, especially if you are confronting the shop owner. See if the guy will take a look at no charge to you - as a sign of good faith. If he refuses and comes up with some excuse - drop this guy and contact an attorney to see what your options are. The sooner you address this, the greater chance you will get a resolution.

Wow, thanks for taking the time to write such a thoughtful reply.

I understand that my odds of recovering everything even by going to court are fairly remote. However I am prepared to fight when my rights have been infringed. Otherwise, what will stop him from doing the same thing to the next person.

The engine had definitely been sitting in the elements for who knows how long. Every square inch of the outside is coated with a thick scales of rust or corrosion.

The guy even went so far as to say "the engine is perfect" after his mechanics got it running. I'm really starting to suspect that this was a scam from the beginning.

I have already obtained second opinions from several mechanics, and they all agree that the there are signs that the engine had not been properly maintained and that I should be able to ask for my money back.

If this guy refuses, or give me some BS excuse, I'll definitely see him in court.

Thanks for the excellent advice.

No problem. Keep us updated on how this turn out for you and good luck!

Another update:

I had them (The seller's shop) take the car today and they just called to report that they have found the source of the noise.

They think it is the belt tensioner, because when they removed the serpentine belt the noise disappeared. However, our friend said the belt tensioner is not part of the motor, so I should provide the part (He suggested taking the one from my old motor).

Does that sound logical to you, and I should make them furnish the new tensioner?

Thanks

I'd see if they pick up the tab for a replacement tensioner. Sounds like this guy is trying to play off of semantics and what constitutes an "engine" component - not a good way to get repeat business or future business from others reading this. You paid for the engine as is, was told it was "perfectly" working - so you should expect to see a perfectly working engine. I know on reman engines with warranty - if you take parts from an existing engine and put them on the reman, and those parts cause problems, you will void the reman engine's warranty. The mechanic is suggesting you swap tensioners because he doesn't want to part with any of "his" money. If it was me, I'd tell him to man up and make this right - he performed a service, he needs to follow through with his work. A tensioner generally doesn't suddenly fail, unless the little shock/strut looking portions is leaking oil.

Alternative is to swap your exiting tensioner - but see if they will pick up the tab for labor and atleast a new belt. Not sure how much traction you will get with the mechanic, but be sure to stand your ground and keep swinging. I've been to a number of repair shops (body and paint) and independent and factory dealerships - if they can get away with something, they will.

Pretty hard to believe it was all with the tensioner, given the symptoms that you've had previously and the noise in the video. But until you get the car running, pretty hard to diagnose any further symptoms and see if the engine will have potential problems down the road. Have sat out in the elements probably didn't help matters, but the engine being mostly aluminum - should not be a deal breaking issue.

Fish, I totally agree with you.

I will insist that he pick up the tab for the replacement tensioner. Even if he refuse at least I can leverage that in other areas of negotiations.

He charged $65 last time for tow, so if he asks for that again this time, I will ask him to waive it since I'm picking up his slack on the warranty.

I also asked him to thorough look over the engine and he agreed. I think that also has some value in it.

I'll try to get the best deal I can but at minimum, I will be satisfied as long as I don't have shell any of my own money this time.



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