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By c2105026, April 28, 2007



I heard on the news this week that in the first quarter of '07 toyota has finally won the crown of World's Biggest Car Company.

It pipped GM by about 50,000 units or so....

I could see this happening. For some reason GM, here (in OZ) in europe and in the states, keep putting out inferior products with little apparent foresight. In australia they rely on a large V6 (Commodore that now costs a fortune to run, high fuel bill), a couple of korean snipboxes (Barina, Viva - daewoo knockoffs), the european astra which has a chequered reliability record, and a new mid-size that is also a korean knock-off.

In the US GM seems to rely on SUVs and pickups, and from what I have read the passenger car range isn't up to scratch when compared with japanese running costs and reliability.

It also seems that Toyota, like other Japanese car companies, don't really make any big mistakes financially or technologically. I predict that by 2020-2030 ford, chrysler and GM will play second fiddle to the new Big 3 - Mazda, Honda and Toyota.

Just my 2 bob....

Is anyone really surprised? GM has been closing plant after plant and laying of thousands of workers, while at the same time Toyota has been expanding its workforce into America. Between the collapse of Oldsmobile marque, as well as the EV1 electric car scandal, GM has just lost it. The only real gains GM found in the last decade was in the year following 9/11 when they promoted their "keep America rolling" campaign, which is a complete joke considering most Toyotas contain more parts manufactured in America than GM.

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Gm didn't lose it because of the cancellation of the EV1 and the elimination of OLDS. They lost it because they are saddled with a less than sterling reputation and high labor and legacy costs.

If anything the elimination of the money hemorrhaging EV1 and profitless for decades OLDS were steps in the right direction.

GM has had and continues to have too much redundancy in their lineup. Did you know that the Olds 98, Pontiac Bonneville and Buick Park Avenue were all the same car? What should happen is that Chevy should make common cars like Impalas, Cobalts, Malibus and Corvettes because they are and American Icon, Pontiac shouldn't make anything that doesn't have 2 doors, meaning they should drop the 4 door Grand Prix and G6. Buick should trim their lineup down to 2 cars, they don't need a minivan or SUV. GMC should make all the trucks and SUVs and Cadillac should make luxury cars. Saturn only needs small cars like the Ion and forget Subaru, Saab and Hummer, they are GM's Jag, Land Rover and Volvo, meaning they are something you own just to say "I own it".

There is no reason to have a Chevy Tahoe and GMC Yukon when they are 99% identical and compete with each other for market share. Same thing with the Trail Blazer, Envoy and Ranier. The Pontiac Solstice and Saturn SKY are another example. Actually, GM shouldn't have bothered. Mazda had that market cornered and has since 1990. GM should have saved their cash.

Toyota on the other hand, has a sterling reputation as building some of the most reliable production cars, and aren't saddled with high legacy or labor costs.

In addition, Toyota has 3 operating devisions, and they were smart about branding. No two Toyota vehicles are similar enough that your average consumer can tell they are the same car. Toyota, Scion and Lexus don't compete for market share like Chevy and Pontiac or Chevy and GMC do.

Toyota also has one of the world's highest efficiency production systems and most streamlined operations. It manages to build cars all over the world and maintain high quality, and it is because of their "continuous improvement" philosophy and the worker centered approach they take to manufacturing. To Toyota the worker is important, they produce the product, and they make the company profitable through their hard work. GM has not taken this approach in my lifetime, and it shows. Think about it, are you more likely to put a car together well if your company tells you, "Be proud that you are an integral part of this car" or are you more likely to put a car together well if you are told, "you're just a body here to tighten screws, anyone could do it."

Isn't it clear why Toyota sells so many cars?

Another thing that toyota does, at least here in OZ, is that they have a finger in pretty much every market segment.

Light? Yaris.

Small? Corolla.

Medium? Camry.

Large? Aurion. (basically V6 camry)

Small Luxury? Lexus IS.

Large Luxury? Lexus GS

Small SUV? Rav 4

Medium SUV? Kluger (Highlander?)

Large SUV? Prado, Land cruiser

Delivery Van? Hiace

Work Pickup? Hilux

whilst the roadster and sports coupe markets aren't represented, whilst these were big c.1990-1995 they are boutique segments now... Toyota has been no.1 seller in OZ since the mid-90s because they are reasonably successful in each key market area.

an interesting note is that when the 4th generation commodore was released in 2006 (known as the 'VE' here), holden promised that its car was of good build quality, was going to be reliable, magazines said it was world class etc etc. well, that is what they also said about the VT released in '97, and it was 10 miles south of hopeless...

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We have even better coverage in the states.

Small: Yaris, Xa

Compact: Corolla (Sedan), Matrix (Wagon), xB (Box on wheels)

Midsize Sedan: Camry

Midsize coupe: Solara, tC

Large Sedan: Avalon ( a lengthened and much upgraded Camry)

Small SUV: RAV4

Midsize SUV: Highlander

Large SUV: 4Runner

XL SUV: Sequoia and Land Cruiser

Small Truck: Tacoma

Large Truck: Tundra

Minivan: Sienna

Small Luxury: IS Series

Midsize Luxury: ES 350

Sport Luxury: GS Series

Luxury Coupe: SC430

Large Luxury: LS Series

Midsiza Luxury SUV: RX350

Large Luxury SUV: GX Series

XL Luxury SUV LX Series

Hybrids: Pris, Camry, Highlander, RX400h, Lexus GS 430h, Lexus LS (a couple of models)

All we are missing is a delivery van, a roadster, sport coupe and sports car. In the US, delivery vans are the big 3's market and it doesn't have room for one more entry. Roadsters, sport coupes and sports cars are nice, but they don't sell in any volume. Toyota has tried all three types of cars here before and none of them sold particularly well, that is my guess as to why they currently don't have a Celica, Supra or MR2.

The Celica died because the Scion tC stole their market in its last years. As for the failure of the Supra, it had more to do with the $40,000+ pricetag. The MR2 lost because Toyota tried to turn it into a competition for the mainstay Mazda MX-5 Miata, which by far is the definitive affordable roadster. The MR2 just wasn't cut out to pull ranks with the Miata or Honda's S2000.

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The Celica died because the Scion tC stole their market in its last years. As for the failure of the Supra, it had more to do with the $40,000+ pricetag. The MR2 lost because Toyota tried to turn it into a competition for the mainstay Mazda MX-5 Miata, which by far is the definitive affordable roadster. The MR2 just wasn't cut out to pull ranks with the Miata or Honda's S2000.

I didn't say why those models didn't sell. Certainly the tC took sales from the Celica, it was more practical and it looked better. Another thing that hurt Celica sales was that it became a "chick car" in its last iteration. I hardly ever see a man driving a Celica, and since men are more likely to buy sport compacts than women, having a reputation as a car that women mostly buy doesn't help you to sell cars.

The Supra was an awesome car, but it didn't have the image that the Corvette had, or the techno gadgets that the Mitsubishi 3000 GT VR4 had. Its $40,000 + price tag wasn't bad for what the car was, the problem was that other cars with similar prices were more appealing.

Your MR2 theory is totally correct. It was a good seller and a relatively popular car in its class when it first came out. When they changed it to the MR2 Spyder, it became competition for the Mazda Miata, which is a no-no. The Miata had it hands down on the MR2, and to date, no manufacturer has made a better selling roadster than the Miata. The Miata is a fantastic car. It combines the driving experience and fun of the old MGs and Triumphs with the modern conveniences and reliability of a Japanese car. No other car comes closer to matching the feel of a British roadster, and the British roadster is the gold standard, which means the Miata is tops. Everyone who tried to grab a piece of the low priced roadster market has been sorry when they spent millions and billions to develop a car that couldn't grab Miata's market share, including GM and Ford.

Interesting, toyota is trying to do a similar thing in OZ with the Aurion - get in on the big 6 market that is. It started back in '93 when the camry went widebodied, and the V6 was made available pretty much across the range. It was marketed against the Ford Falcon, and GM Holden Commodore. Well it didn't go to well, mainly because people perceived it as being too small (Which it isn't). Over a decade later, the Aurion was released - basically a V6 camry with revised frontal styling. And, because it has a new, unique identity, it is going quite well....

I didn't say why those models didn't sell. Certainly the tC took sales from the Celica, it was more practical and it looked better. Another thing that hurt Celica sales was that it became a "chick car" in its last iteration. I hardly ever see a man driving a Celica, and since men are more likely to buy sport compacts than women, having a reputation as a car that women mostly buy doesn't help you to sell cars.

Then how do you explain the success of the Miata and to a lesser extent the new Mini, both chick cars

I wouldn't categorize either as a chick car.........

Then how do you explain the success of the Miata and to a lesser extent the new Mini, both chick cars
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I didn't say why those models didn't sell. Certainly the tC took sales from the Celica, it was more practical and it looked better. Another thing that hurt Celica sales was that it became a "chick car" in its last iteration. I hardly ever see a man driving a Celica, and since men are more likely to buy sport compacts than women, having a reputation as a car that women mostly buy doesn't help you to sell cars.

Then how do you explain the success of the Miata and to a lesser extent the new Mini, both chick cars

For one, neither a Miata or a Mini are what you would call a "chick car"

Secondly, neither the Miata or Mini are SPORT COMPACTS, which was the only category I was speaking about. The Miata is a Roadster, in fact it is the worlds best selling roadster of all time. The Mini is a European Sub-Compact.

Sport Compacts are Celicas, Civics, Nissan Sentra SE-R, Eclipse, Lancer EVO, etc.

Cool,

I am sure all the guys at TMC are going to get great summer bonuses this year... unfortunately, that does not effect me...

Just looking through this thread...

Toyota has good coverage over all segments. But GM covers them all too. And in teh case of GM they try to have every option combinate available to you. Where as the Jpn auto makers have more of a "this is what we got, if you dont like, too bad" marketing scheme... Yet, they are out selling the D3.

Brand Image...

Contour,

Toyota Land Cruiser vs Lexus GX; Toyota Highlander vs Lexus RX

What's the difference?

(1st little jab)

Jpn Big 3 are Toyota, Honda, Nissan. Mazda is one of the small players, along with Mitsubishi & Subaru.

I am sure the D3 will continue to survive (not saying they will do great - but will survive).

GM also has their "kaizen / continuous improvment" initiative. Its also knows as raping the supplier and blackmail. (yeah, I am an unhappy supplier!)

Toyota expects minimal kaizen on current products, but they expect a LOT of improvements on thing in development. Whereas GM puts too much effort in trying to improve current product, and ends up with not enough resources on deveopment of better new technologies. (at least thats how it seems to me, supplying both of them).

As for vehicle classification, depending on which source you take, they all have their own "method" of classification. Dont get too hung-up on it.

Mind you, I dont think "chick car" and "gay car" are common classifications (although we all have our opinions on that)

BTW, I had the opportunity to peek into the executive offices at Honda HQ in Tokyo. The President does NOT have his own office! He just has a small desk by the window (great view), along with all the other execs.

Try to sell THAT at to the D3.

Finally, hey!!... Saab? "I own it"! (2nd jab. - how's it going buddy?)

ummmm... not 2bits worth... maybe 1/2 bit worth?

tdk.

The Miata is the pinicle icon of the retro-50s British sports car. Yeah, other companies like Honda, GM, and Toyota can try and pick a slice of the pie, but there is no question who created the market to begin with. Alot of the Miata's success has to do with Mazda's wisdom of keeping the Miata to its original design and not trying to make it overtly bigger and faster than the previous generations. If you look at the S2000, it's huge compared to the Miata (3" wider, 5" longer, 2" taller, and a good 500 lbs heavier). The Solstice/Sky is even heavier and wider. In over 17 years, the Miata has grown by only 1" in all directions and only 150 lbs from its original design. Yes the S2000 and the Solstice/Sky are in direct competition with the Miata, but they can never copy what Mazda created which is why the Miata will always win.

As for the success of the Mini, I've never understood why. Austin Powers maybe???

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As for the success of the Mini, I've never understood why. Austin Powers maybe???

The Italian Job. Remember it featured 3 Mini Cooper 'S' and they did cool stuff like drive down subway tunnels, stairs, etc.

OK I stand corrected on the chick car thing, but I only see women driving Mini's and they are generally defined as 'cute'. Miatas I don't see many, so I won't further comment ( I was told it was not a car for larger men, by someone who was eyeing one but could barely fit...)

How many of you guys would like to drive a car that is defined as 'cute'

It's hard to categorize cars, I would not call a Civic a sports compact.

There is nothing wrong with chick cars, minivans are not cars, so they don't count default_tongue

Ultimate chick car: New Beatle

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It's hard to categorize cars, I would not call a Civic a sports compact.

There is nothing wrong with chick cars, minivans are not cars, so they don't count default_tongue

Ultimate chick car: New Beatle

A Civic is categorized as a sport compact for two reasons:

1) It is a compact car and there is a factory version of the car (the Si) that has 200 hp, brakes and suspension to match.

2) It is a compact car that has great aftermarket support for performance and appearance parts.

As for the Beetle, BINGO. Ultimate Chick car, never seen a man driving one by himself. If I see a man driving one, it is with a woman in the passenger's seat and I always assume it is her car. This is especially true if it has daisy wheels and a flower in the little bud vase on the dash.

The Italian Job. Remember it featured 3 Mini Cooper 'S' and they did cool stuff like drive down subway tunnels, stairs, etc.

I wonder how must Austin paid to get their cars into that movie. Probably just provided the 10+ cars needed. Italian Job was a good movie, but I don't recall it being THAT big at the box office lol

A Civic is categorized as a sport compact for two reasons:

1) It is a compact car and there is a factory version of the car (the Si) that has 200 hp, brakes and suspension to match.

2) It is a compact car that has great aftermarket support for performance and appearance parts.

As for the Beetle, BINGO. Ultimate Chick car, never seen a man driving one by himself. If I see a man driving one, it is with a woman in the passenger's seat and I always assume it is her car. This is especially true if it has daisy wheels and a flower in the little bud vase on the dash.

Actually, I've seen a number of men with Beatles, but all of them were ulta-liberal, anti-Bush, flower-power hippies. One of my college professors drives a Beatle. All semester he talked about how much he hated the war and wished Al Gore had won in 2000. The other is my neighbor across the street. He owned one for a couple of years and sold it a little while ago for a Civic.

As for the Mini, I would agree as a chick car. The Miata has a stereotype for being a chick car (or controversially a gay car), but I think Mazda is trying to remove that stereotype with their redesign last year. It was renamed the MX-5 and looks much more muscular, borrowing styling cues from the RX-8.

In australia, due to higher gas prices and through immigration we have close social ties to Europe (generally have more European tastes in, well, everything) and changing demographics small european cars like the new mini are quite popular amongst young urban males, especially the turbocharged S model. That and, unlike in the states, the original mini was quite popular in Australia. I have driven a new mini myself; when I was working in downtown Sydney work had one in the vehicle pool. I found it ergonomically weird, general dynamics were good but not the be-all-and-end-all. Yes the Beetle is generally bought by women; usually those who are middle aged. Most MX-5 drivers appear to be men about 40-ish.

Here women tend to buy smaller cars. The Ford KA was sold here for a few years; many women got those. I notice that a lot of young women usually get about in $14990 driveaway no more to pay asian 3 door hatches.

Bikeman982

I introduced my family to Corollas by buying one for my wife to drive, then one for my oldest daughter.

The one for my wife was actually for me, but after my wife drove it, she wanted it. I gave it to her and bought another Corolla for me.

I also found one for my son and found a Tercel for my other daughter. She liked it a lot and she sold it and bought a newer Tercel (I found it on e-Bay for her). The entire family drives Toyotas and everyone likes the good mileage and reliability.

I don't theink the Corolla is targeted for either male or female, it is for either gender.

and, that is why toyotas sell - you probably won't soil yourself in excitement, but you won't be offended either. I have heard many a story about people who swear off particular makes/models due to problems that are intolerable be it design faults or poor reliability. There is nothing on any current toyota model that is so bad you can't live with it. Take my corolla for example. There are other cars in the class that handle better, are better value on paper, use less fuel etc. like...

Mazda3 is faster and handles better, but is very unrefined on open road

Hyundai Elantra is better equipped but has poor resale and weird steering

VW Golf is better equipped and is safer, more refined but can be unreliable and is much more expensive (in australia)

GM Holden Astra is safer, better equipped and more refined but has poor quality

Ford Focus rides and handles like a dream but can be very unreliable

and so on...

The mums and dads who go out and buy 90% of toyotas usually aren't concerned with steering feel, ride isolation or tourqe bands, they want something that will get them to the mall and back in comfort without reliability worries and is worth something at the end. Toyota in general ticks these boxes. These are universal desires that male/female, young/old, rich/poor all want fulfilled. A toyota won't turn you off. I have even heard of hardened muscle car enthusiasts getting a camry for a company vehicle and not ever switching back. That is why Toyota will be the pacemaker of the global 21st century auto industry. Think about it.....when was the last time toyota ever made a loss?

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