Looks Like Toyota Has Already Started To Pull The Xrs Off The Corolla/

If you check out the Toyota.com website - already stopped mentioning the Corolla XRS and Matrix XRS. This was talked about in the beginning of the year, where Toyota will drop the XRS tag for the 2008 model year and end the production of the 2ZZ-GE engines. So sad - I really liked these Yamaha/Toyota developed engines in the Corolla family (the G-Series heads and engine were wither developed and assembled by Yamaha or Yamaha hade some development in the design of them).

Yamaha developed the Toyota 2000GT the brains behind the designs of most G-heads. This includes engines like the 4AGE/4AGZE, 3SGE/3SGTE, some R-series engine, some M-series engines(1JZGE/2JZGE - think Supra), some of the ZGE/ZFE series, and of course the 2ZZGE.

Looks like it is the end of the road for some Toyota performance engine enthusiasts. Maybe there will be some limited edition performance variants in the future models or at the very least, an aftermarket as good as the Hondas.

friendly_jacek

I thought the 2ZZ-GE was problematic?

As far as I know - only on early Celica GT-S showed problem with the VVTL-i pin sticking causing bent valves. Majority of the bent valve problems they had were more the result of driver error than bad design. Also some people that had issues with the clutch and motor oil life also were pretty hard on the car ie. sticking with conventional oil in mostly high RPM running, use of regular instead of premium gasoline, and clutch misuse from high RPM engagements << probably happens a lot, since the high revving nature of the car doesn't present much low end torque. Most have resorted to clutch drops at 8000+ RPMs to get the engine to moving in its powerband - lots of Matrix XRS owners complained about this.

Bikeman982

It is typical of manufacturers to alter their models frequently. It keeps people looking for something new and better and the next models will be what you need (so they say).

True, but this is more than just a model upgrade - an entire performance section has been wiped out:

Models killed off

Supra

Celica

MR2/MRS

Corolla/Matrix XRS

The new RAV4 with the V6 option is now the hotrod of the Toyota line up. Then it would be a toss up between the Tacomo X-Runner and Avalon. No more lightweight, smaller, sportier cars.

What a mess I made of that post!!!!! default_biggrin

Sorry about that, not sure if the Mozilla browser is handling things differently than Internet Explorer or ....perhaps I am a moron but thiis is what I meant to add to Bikeman's post.

"Some experts believe that name recognition is key to being successful in a given market. Look at Toyota and Honda's model lineup for the past 25 years then look at Ford, GM and Chrysler's model lineup in the same timeframe. The Toyota and Honda lineup have been fairly consistent."

My take on this.....the domestics had so many failures with what used to be their bread and butter that they want people to forget their foibles in the 70's and 80's.....even the 90's. Toyota and Honda on the other hand are proud of their reputations and continue to reap the rewards of the model rocognition.

I agree - not too smart from my point of view. It maybe possible that Toyota will start using Subaru as the next "sporty" Toyota platform, since they acquired a majority stake in the company after buying it from GM. But sales don't lie - they cannot make these new Camrys fast enough - with plants at full capacity and the newly acquired Subaru plant now making Camrys as well.

Just curious Fish...you seem to have a lot of great information regarding Toyota and the Japanese market in general....do you work for Toyota?

Nope - I was a big MOPAR and GM guy. I didn't really get into imports until end high school / college. From there the progression was from first Honda and then to Toyota.

A couple of DSM, Nissan and some German cars along the way - but the Toyota and Honda were the only ones that could take minimal care but keep going (think poor college grad student). Most of what I picked up is from others and personal experience - seen that, done that, won't do that again kind of thing.

The Toyotas I've own (except the 2002 Corolla - probably built on Friday) never broken down or tossed a part - pretty much bulletproof. Takes alot to impress me and I am impressed with Toyota.

friendly_jacek

Just curious Fish...you seem to have a lot of great information regarding Toyota and the Japanese market in general....do you work for Toyota?

LOL, I almost accused him about it once. But when you think about it, he knows WAY MORE than a Toyota employee would.

As far as I know - only on early Celica GT-S showed problem with the VVTL-i pin sticking causing bent valves. ...........snip

I have never heard of this issue. Also, why would the pin sticking cause bent valves??? If the crankshaft and camshaft are synced properly via the timing chain, it shouldn't matter if it's on the "high rev" cam or the "low rev" cam, there would be no contact regardless. Of course a bad 3-4 upshift that ends up in 2nd gear will cause the revs to climb well beyond redline and the resulting valve float will cause bent valves. Maybe someone was trying to use the pin excuse to get free warranty service?

In any case, I do know of the lift bolt issue with the early 2ZZ-GE cars where they tend to break. If they break, the L in VVTL-i no longer works and the "high rev" cam never engages. For fun, here is the TSB ( http://teamcelica.com/tech/installs/liftbolts/liftbolts.pdf ).

In any case, Toyota took the easy road. Instead of developing the engine further and making it better, they just monkeyed around with it a bit here and there, wierd low rev limiter in some years, varying RPMs for lift engagement (6,000 RPM, 6,200 RPM, 6,500 RPM, 6,600 RPM) depending on which year model of 2ZZ-GE you had. Because it was coupled to really bad gear ratios, it made any of the XRS cars very frustrating to drive as the 1-2 upshift will always result in you ending up below the "high rev" cam engagement point unless you enjoy slipping the clutch or want to install a PowerFC to lower the engagement point or increase the rev limiter.

The Lotus 240R showcases what the 2ZZ-GE can achieve in the right hands. 4,000 RPM lift point, superchargered with intercooler running 240HP and a wide torque band. Very nice and takes away all the main weakness of the 2ZZ motor, the very very narrow powerband of what? 1,500 RPM. Bleh.

Bikeman982

What a mess I made of that post!!!!!
Sorry about that, not sure if the Mozilla browser is handling things differently than Internet Explorer or ....perhaps I am a moron but thiis is what I meant to add to Bikeman's post.
"Some experts believe that name recognition is key to being successful in a given market. Look at Toyota and Honda's model lineup for the past 25 years then look at Ford, GM and Chrysler's model lineup in the same timeframe. The Toyota and Honda lineup have been fairly consistent."
My take on this.....the domestics had so many failures with what used to be their bread and butter that they want people to forget their foibles in the 70's and 80's.....even the 90's. Toyota and Honda on the other hand are proud of their reputations and continue to reap the rewards of the model rocognition.

I agree that name and reputation helps to sell cars. Consumer reports and evaluations can make or brake a reputation. Reliability and dependability are key to a good reputation and Toyotas have that.

Dai_Shan

Were the XRS models not selling as much as they would like?

Has anyone heard of a new model coming out in the next year or two, to maybe takeup that spot in the lineup?

Or was Scion their attempt?

Scion was their attempt at the youth/custom market - but it missed by a mile. The XRS variants of the Corolla/Matrix were more or less just a drop off zone of leftover 2ZZ-GE motors and trannys from the killed Celicas.

As far as sales - they really didn't sell as well. The Jekyll & Hyde behavior of the cam lift stage and gearing that didn't keep the motor humming in the powerband killed it. The Lotus Elise/Exige with the Lotus massaged 2ZZ-GE engien does a better job of keeping it in the powerband, but rumors are that they will axe that powerplant in favor of the 2.0L iVTEC Honda plant that are in the Accord/RSX/Civic Si. It is too bad, the 2ZZ-GE engine had a lot of potential.

There were rumors that the XRS variants would get the 2.4L from the Camry and Scion tC in concert with the available TRD supercharger. But it may be that the whole line gets bumped to the 2.4L engine - to compete with the larger displacement engines from competitors.

Supposed to be a "son of supra" coming in 2008 - not sure how much truth there is in that, but Motor Trend seems to think so.

The Corolla is staying 1.8.

Some sneak preview reports on TN says that the 10th gen Corollas in Japan will see the debut of 2ZR-FE engine - still only 1797cc - that replaces 1ZZ.

But then, what's to stop enthusiasts from cramming a 2.4 into Corollas, right here, right now?

Bikeman982

The Corolla is staying 1.8.
Some sneak preview reports on TN says that the 10th gen Corollas in Japan will see the debut of 2ZR-FE engine - still only 1797cc - that replaces 1ZZ.
But then, what's to stop enthusiasts from cramming a 2.4 into Corollas, right here, right now?

I had trouble putting a 1.8L in place of a 1.6L. It fit physically, but electrically there was too much modification required.

Not to insult any performance enthusiasts, but I think most people who buy the Corolla, including the XRS don't know and don't make use of the performance package. They like the looks: upgraded seats, leather shift knob, big rims... and the salesman tels them they have this much more HP and better this and that. The drive them just like a regular Corolla / Matrix, i.e below 4000 rpm.

I'll ask my neighbor why he bought a Matrix XRS instead of a regular one.

I had trouble putting a 1.8L in place of a 1.6L. It fit physically, but electrically there was too much modification required.

Bike, I know people who put 1.8L in their Festivas!

1,424 posts

Bike, I know people who put 1.8L in their Festivas!

And I know people who put a 4.6L 32V Intech V8 with 280 ft-lb of torque and 300 HP into a Miata. All this type of stuff proves is that there are people with more time and money than good sense.

Bikeman982

Bike, I know people who put 1.8L in their Festivas!
And I know people who put a 4.6L 32V Intech V8 with 280 ft-lb of torque and 300 HP into a Miata. All this type of stuff proves is that there are people with more time and money than good sense.

That's true. There are enthusiasts who can do miracles with cars and engines.

I think the people who buy stock performance cars would rather have it already assembled for them.

I think Corollas are meant as reliable, dependable, basic transportation and a daily commuter vehicle.

The XRS is just for those men who are having a second childhood.

The XRS is just for those men who are having a second childhood.

And women! tsk tsk tsk... default_biggrin

I don't know about that - if I was looking for some thrills - I wouldn't dump it into an XRS, I'd pick up somethign with a bit more go.

Still - the XRS does have slightly better handling and discs all around (brake work is a breeze) and I like knowing that the engine has a little more power - can't have too much of that.