I am sorry if any sensibilties are hurt. I did not mean to, I am sure I am dealing with very respectable subject matter experts here. Its true I am not a auto expert so I might use wrong terminology. Sorry about that. I have shared my details with tboner and would look forward to his comments.
I did feel piqued when I was made to look like a fake or fishy. Just FYI, I have no reason to do so.
have a great day.
Hey rnayar,
Maybe I'm just going blind from trying to read these invoices, but are there any oil changes between 24796 and 33654 that I've missed?
Cheers,
Regular Joe
I believe the 30K service included an oil change...Hey rnayar,Maybe I'm just going blind from trying to read these invoices, but are there any oil changes between 24796 and 33654 that I've missed?
Cheers,
Regular Joe
I'm ****uming that, but most every "milestone" service includes Lube, Oil and Filter.
TB
Thanks TB.
The change intervals are a little bit longer than I would allow myself, but I change earlier than required out of habit (3000miles). Despite that, I see no reason why this engine should have failed, based on the service intervals listed. I would say that this is probably either driver abuse (No accusation is intended or implied. It's just a possibility) or a manufacturing error. It's unlikely to be an engineering error as the problem is simply not common enough for that to be the case.
I would think that this claim should be honored, unless Toyota has some proof of engine abuse. The burden of proof lies on Toyota to prove abuse, as there is no way (other than service records) that a driver can prove conclusively that the car was operated as per its design.
Thanks for all of the work getting this posted and good luck with your claim, rnayar.
Cheers,
Regular Joe
When the car had 33,654 miles (3,498 miles since the previous oil change)
the owner, R. Nayar, took the car to a Toyota dealer complaining "the engine oil light
flashes on and off". The dealership found "the vehicle has approximately
1/2 quart of oil inside the engine" and that the "inside of the valve cover
is black" and that the "dipstick is also sludged up."
http://www.saber.net/~monarch/sludge.jpg
So we are dealing with an owner who drove 3,498 miles without checking
the engine oil level. The oil level got so low the engine oil light flashed
on and off, signaling dangerously low oil pressure. R. Nayar STILL did not
check the oil level and STILL did not stop driving the car as instructed to in
the owners manual. Instead, Rahul Nayar continued to drive, including
driving the car to a Toyota dealer which found only 1/2 quart of oil in the
engine - a catastrophically low amount of oil. With such a tiny amount of oil
in the engine the oil was overheated and turned to sludge, just as it would
in any car. So by 33,654 miles we are dealing with an engine that suffered
severe mechanical wear, such as connecting rod bearing wear and fatigue
due to the ultra low oil level and an engine that had sludge, due to the low
oil level, that could have blocked or partly blocked critical oil supply passages
and holes in the engine.
Now amazingly, this damaged engine still survived almost another 20,000 miles
- to 51,888 miles - before a connecting rod bearing finally gave up and the
rod tore a hole in the side of the engine block - such holes are a classic symptom
of oil starvation due to a low oil level. Now even when the Toyota dealership
informed R. Nayar back at 33,654 miles that the engine was almost empty
of oil, he still apparently did not take personal responsibility for regularly
checking the oil level and still continued to drive the car despite ominous engine
noises. How do we know R. Nayar STILL was not checking the oil level inbetween
oil changes? Well he admitted it on the old Corolland forum. Also, he had
several oil changes done at a Fix N Go shop after the 33,654 mile oil starvation
incident and did not notice that fix n go had wildly overfilled his engine with
5 quarts of oil each time http://www.saber.net/~monarch/fixngo.jpg when only
3.5 quarts are needed to bring the level to the Full Mark on the engine oil dipstick.
In summary, Rahul Nayar did not check his engine oil level inbetween
engine oil changes every 3,500 - 4,500 miles. He made approximately
10 -15 stops for gas during those miles yet failed to ever check the
oil level. The owners manual recommends checking the level at EVERY
fuel stop. The bottom line is Rahul's engine would not have been destroyed
if he had monitored his engine oil level as instructed in the owners manual.
Therefore it isn't fair to ask Toyota to cover the $4,500 worth of damage
to his engine. Even Rahul's new engine could fail in the same way if he
continued to fail to monitor the engine oil level at a reasonable frequency.
I have to agree with Paul about the oil light. By the time the oil light comes on the damage is done.
Paul,
You can't exactly say that happened. I could read it as there was 0.5 quarts of oil in the valve cover. It could be read in your fashion as well.
You also know a shop could just put down 5 quarts of oil as the standard charge for materials during an oil change.
I suggest instead of "accusing" him at this point, why not ask some questions of him or call the dealers, their phone numbers are easily found.
But before you go lambaste the guy, you at least owe him an opportunity to explain some of these things.
(BTW, that is the problem I have with both CB and you at times, you both go off on your particular nemisis without asking clarifying questions. Plus, you have to learn how to ask them in a non-leading fashion, such as, can you explain what the dealer found at 33K miles and what their recommendation was, the notes listed are short, and cryptic.)
I was more inclined to believe that the Texaco station didn't fill the oil correctly on the last change, but that too is nothing but speculation.
What I want to know is what did Mr Nayer do after it was recommended that he return in 100 miles for a check regarding oil consumption, I don't see a visit logged in his service records.
THAT is the visit he needs logged in his service records, receipt and all, to demonstrate he was following the advice of his Toyota dealership.
I also think that if he were told about sludge, it would have been wise to have all further changes done at Toyota. Not that other places cannot change oil, but instead to continue a relationship with the dealer and to have them continue to monitor what they saw at 33K. Now, you cannot blame sludge on NOT going to Toyota alone.
To me it is ironic or tragic that it was then that he started going to other outlets for service because this muddies the waters regarding the repair.
But we do need clarification about the 33K service visit and what was shared with the customer and what actions were taken.
FWIW,
TB
Rahul, (I may call you that, correct?)
Oh, I just hopped out of the shower (it stimulates my brain) and I thought of a few more questions.
How much make up oil was added between oil changes? Of course, do you have receipts for this was well?
What was the oil level at the fillup prior to the 33K service? I expect the dipstick to read low by some amount at this fillup, what was it?
Did you have problems with keeping spark plugs clean? If an engine is burning oil at a high rate, it will foul spark plugs at a fairly quick rate as well.
How about oil leaks, is there a thick coat of oily residue under the vehicle. (Engines or transmissions leaking often leave a good coat of "goo" along the underside of the car.)
There where two check engine light services, was anything changed, or did they give you a reason why the CEL came on. How about the actual codes, were the code shared with you?
I'm sure I'll think of more as I go about my day,
TB
Reminds me of a guy I know who had a 1971 Dodge Coronet (318 V8). I don't think he changed teh oil more than once every 4-5 years. KNew when to add oil because the oil light went on when he went around a turn (good design on those old Chrysler engines - oil sensor nice and high up so when it goes on, the engine is still alive). Well, one day I dropped by and he complained that the oil light was broken. I assumed he meant it wasn't lightnig up when he turned the ignition on, so I came back a while later iwth a new bulb. Well, he had meant it wasn't GOING OFF. In short, he was driving the car with the oil light on for about a month...! The dipstick was dry. Engine was making a loud clanking noise...well, lots of loud clanking noises.
We put in a few quarts of oil, the clanking went away, and about five years later he sold the car and got something less than ten years old. I feel sorry for it...
(I might add that in the ten years or so he had that car, he never washed it, either. And mechanics kept telling him it needed a new engine / transmission / electronic ignition computer. Each time I could fix it with a screwdriver (carb adjustment) or new vacuum hose!)
tboner, you might ask Dave to email you the archives to Corolland. Much of this questioning that you want done - we already did that on Corolland in May or early June when Rahul originally posted his story about Corolla sludge. Whenever asked about checking the oil level, Rahul admitted he never checked the oil level himself inbetween changes. Nor did he ask others to check it inbetween oil changes.
The oil light in a Toyota will only flicker when the oil level is extremely low - like around 1 quart left in the engine and this would occur only during stopping and cornering - because the oil light is an oil PRESSURE indicating light, not an oil LEVEL indicating light. The owners manual explains this in great detail. Thus by the time the light starts flickering, engine damage is already occurring and the oil is being overheated.
Also a valve cover does not hold anymore than a tablespoon or two of oil and certainly not 1/2 a quart..
I'd like to know more about the root cause of the oil loss. If it's not on the floor of the garage, where'd it go? If it was consumed in the engine, that's an engine problem and should be covered.
Also, I believe that the oil light comes on when the engine is down about a quart, not when it's down three quarts. What's the point of having it if it doesn't come on until you're down three quarts. That's like having gas light come on after the tank's already empty. "BLINK, BLINK - Just wanted to inform you that you are now offically out of gas." Thanks for the message....
Additionally, I'd like to think that everybody checks their oil every time they stop at a gas station, but we all know that simply isn't true. When I'm at a station, I never see anybody checking their oil when I'm checking mine. I'd say that less than 20% of people check on a regular basis and that less than 50% even know how to check it. Toyota recommends this, and it's a great idea. Checking oil on a regular basis can detect loss due to leaking, head gasket failure, burning, etc., but it's not a requirement of your warranty otherwise they would call it a necessary servicing and not a recommendation.
Cheers,
Regular Joe
REPLY TO TBONER
Rahul, (I may call you that, correct?)
SURE
Oh, I just hopped out of the shower (it stimulates my brain) and I thought of a few more questions.
How much make up oil was added between oil changes? Of course, do you have receipts for this was well?
ITS ALL DOCUMENTED. I HAVE NOTHING IN ADDITION TO WHAT I HAVE SHARED
What was the oil level at the fillup prior to the 33K service? I expect the dipstick to read low by some amount at this fillup, what was it?
I DONT HAVE A RECORD OF THAT, DEFECTS OR OBSERVATIONS IF ANY HAVE BEEN NOTED IN THE RECEIPT(S)
Did you have problems with keeping spark plugs clean? If an engine is burning oil at a high rate, it will foul spark plugs at a fairly quick rate as well.
AGAIN, NONE OF THE SERVICE REPS EVER POINTED THAT OUT OT ME WHEN I GAVE MY CAR FOR OIL CHANGE - ACTUALLY I DEPENDED FULLY ON THEM.
How about oil leaks, is there a thick coat of oily residue under the vehicle. (Engines or transmissions leaking often leave a good coat of "goo" along the underside of the car.)
NONE THAT WAS BROUGHT TO MY ATTENTION, I DID NOT SEE ANY OIL SPILLS ON THE GROUND EITHER
There where two check engine light services, was anything changed, or did they give you a reason why the CEL came on. How about the actual codes, were the code shared with you?
THE OTHER CHECK ENGINE LIGHT DETECTED BY FOX WAS SOMETHING MINOR, I DONT REMEBER WHAT IT WAS BUT I GUESS SOME HOSE PIPE(MAYBE GAS HOSEPIPE) WAS TOUCHING "SOMETHING" AND THEY CORRECTED IT.
I'm sure I'll think of more as I go about my day,
THANX BUDDY
Regular Joe,
All great ideas, but I believe in most cars, the oil light is not triggered by oil level, like the low fuel light, but rather by oil pressure.
And yes, sadly, when it comes on, it usually means check your wallet, because you have dangerously low oil pressure.
And yes, the root cause is needed, and I asked some questions above to help point to the root cause, if the oil was low.
TB
thanks for wishing me luck regular joe, I am sure if Mr PC is processing my case I will surely end up paying Toyota ( ha.. ha !! pun intented).Thanks TB.The change intervals are a little bit longer than I would allow myself, but I change earlier than required out of habit (3000miles). Despite that, I see no reason why this engine should have failed, based on the service intervals listed. I would say that this is probably either driver abuse (No accusation is intended or implied. It's just a possibility) or a manufacturing error. It's unlikely to be an engineering error as the problem is simply not common enough for that to be the case.
I would think that this claim should be honored, unless Toyota has some proof of engine abuse. The burden of proof lies on Toyota to prove abuse, as there is no way (other than service records) that a driver can prove conclusively that the car was operated as per its design.
Thanks for all of the work getting this posted and good luck with your claim, rnayar.
Cheers,
Regular Joe
Oops excuse me, I have the highest regard for everyone on this board.
I have driven the car very conservatively, it has never been abused - 50 K miles in five years and hardly driven out of state or on long drives. My work location is right accross the street, so I hardly put on any miles. You can verify that from my receipts.
cheers
Did I miss something? Are Rnayer and chris---39 one and the same?
I have read the accounts for servicing and I am confused. Shouldn't this have been covered under warranty? Don't 1998 Corolla's have the 5 year/60k mile warranty on the drive train?
I was told I am out of warranty by Suburban. I am not aware of any 60K warranty.I have read the accounts for servicing and I am confused. Shouldn't this have been covered under warranty? Don't 1998 Corolla's have the 5 year/60k mile warranty on the drive train?
Yes, DB the 1998 Corolla had a 5 year, 60,000 mile powertrain warranty.
However, no car maker in the world, of course, will warranty engine
damage caused by owner neglect to maintain the
engine oil level between the LOW and FULL marks on the
engine oil dipstick.
Rahul admitted he did not check his engine oil level inbetween
oil changes and at 33,564 miles a Toyota dealer discovered he was driving around
with as little as 1/2 of a quart of oil in his engine, causing oil
overheating, sludge formation and mechanical damage to the engine
due to oil starvation.
The 1998 Corolla owners manual states:
"It is normal that an engine should consume some engine oil
during normal operation. One of the most important points
in proper vehicle maintenance is to keep the engine oil at
the optimum level. Therefore it is essential that the oil
level be checked regularly. Toyota recommends that the oil
level be checked every time you refuel the vehicle." Then,
in BOLD print, the owners manual says: FAILURE TO CHECK
THE OIL LEVEL REGULARLY COULD LEAD TO SERIOUS ENGINE
TROUBLE DUE TO INSUFFICIENT OIL."
Also in BOLD print, the owners manual says: AVOID
OVERFILLING OR THE ENGINE COULD BE DAMAGED."
PC,
Pl excuse my ignorance. what is powertrain warranty? what doeis it include and exclude?
The powertrain warranty normally covers the "drive" parts of the car. That is, what makes the car move. This always includes engine and transmission and normally covers all drivelines.
I think I still have the list if you're really interested, but the most important thing is that the warranty length on the engine is 5 years or 60000 miles.
Cheers,
Regular Joe
How many people really check the oil level between changes?
If the oil light only goes on when the engine is already damaged, isn't that a bad design?
Should a Corolla be using more than one quart between oil changes?
Most important...
If you saw this thread on a Neon board discussing Neons, wouldn't you assume that it was the Neon's fault because all Neons are crap, in your opinion (Paul, at least), even though Neons have not had this problem in general?
Also, what's with the ****umption that because a problem is not widespread, that it doesn't exist? That there can be no manufacturer defect unless everyone has it? Doesn't pass muster...
And 27,000 to 33,000 miles is 6,000 miles which is within Toyota's recommended intervals. If you follow Toyota's recommended maintenance, not some mystical crap that pAsses around on the Internet, your engine should NOT fail like this. Especially without any kind of visible oil leak or blue exhaust plumes. And if you're losing THAT much oil, you SHOULD notice it on the ground or in the air behind you...unless it all came out at once while driving as the result of some sort of catastrophic engine failure. (Like when my wife shifted from drive to reverse in my 1989 Caravan at 65 mph by accident, blowing a seal in the transmission which lost us a BUNCH of fluid all at once, noticeable mainly because it landed on the exhaust! ... hence mAssive blue smoke plume which wouldn't be noticeable otherwise. Oh, yes, and I KNOW if it had been a Toyota it wouldn't have leaked at all 
but sorry, no 1989 turbocharged Toyota minivans available.)
PS> Ford has, according to acquaintances, often weaseled out of their drivetrain warranty by claiming problems were cause by the oil pump which I do not think they cover. ... so powertrain warranty is sometimes only as good as the automaker who gives it.
Sometimes it's better for the company to pay even when the claim is dubious simply to retain a customer...it costs a lot to gain a new customer, and dissatisfied ones often turn off others...Toyota's well-deserved reputation for quality is worth hundreds of millions to the company each year. If Toyota had an average rep, they'd have some real problems selling in their current volumes!
Dave, Neon owners give their cars the worst possible rating for engine reliability. http://www.saber.net/~monarch/corolla1.jpg whereas '98 Corolla owners give their cars the highest possible rating. Same pattern in JD Powers owner surveys.
Charlene Blake (Autoresearcher) started this sludge thread when she wrote "This is a Corolla owner with sludge. Since he has proper maintenance, does anyone know why Toyota would refuse to cover the repairs?" Well we now know why Toyota refused to cover the repairs - the owner drove the car with the oil pressure light on and with only 1/2 quart of oil in the car...which caused the sludge to form. Therefore the car was not properly maintained. So we can still say no legitimate case of sludge has ever been reported by a Corolla owner to Corolland.
