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By CreepingDeath, February 3, 2006

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My wife and I considered ourselves Toyota enthusiasts. We own 2 identical '04

and '05 Corolla CE's (manual trans.) and previously owned a fleet of Tercels.

We bought both of our cars brand new off the truck with 2-3 miles on them. We

also have documented proof that ALL of the service, including oil changes, has

been performed on the vehicles by the dealer, including ALL of the recomended

crap for the 30,000 mile service. The problem we are having is with our '04

only and we have NEVER seen this problem occur with our '05 or ANY other Corolla

for that matter.

Our '04 Corolla started and ran perfect for the first year and a half or so

(20,000 miles) before it started to occasionaly "rev itself up" while warming

up, the second winter (2004) we had it(after we purchased '05). This problem only occured

sometimes, usually when it was below 40 degrees. Back then it was rare

for it to occur and we had a lot of trouble getting the problem to duplicate. It

started normally most of the time. We took it to the dealer and they couldnt

get the problem to reproduce. After several attempts to replicate the problem

without success at the dealer, I video recorded the issue and brought it in for

the service manager to review. Immediately, he assessed that it was the throttle

body assembly, ordered the part and a week or so later, supposedly fixed the

problem. At this time I knew my 36,000 mile warranty would expire before the

next winter, so I made sure if the problem reocurred the following winter, it

would still be covered under the 36,000 mile warranty. The problem kept occuring

during the winter months during cold startup only and problem stopped completely

during the warm summer months. It was strange, it would start up perfectly one

day at 29 degrees, then the next day "rev itself" at 31 degrees.

Of course as soon as it got cold this winter (2005) the problem immediately

started happening again. I took it back to dealer. When my wife and I picked

it up, we specifically asked the guy, and he said the problem was replicated and

fixed. It turns out this guy had NO idea what he was talking about. It happend

again less than a week later and I started more seriously video documenting this

issue. I contacted the dealer again to set up an appointment to drop the car off and

they (same service manager that seen my video) tell me there is nothing wrong

with my car. He basically told me it was all in my head and that it is normal

for the car to rev itself up after he already tried to fix the problem.

My wife and contacted Toyota corp. and we took the car to the dealer that we

bought it from (different than the place we had it serviced at), and showed

their service manager our video. He immediately assesed that something wasnt

right about our car. He went as far as giving us a free oil change and admitted

error on the other dealers part. He also told us he would get to the bottom of this, get us a rental and fix the problem. We did what he suggested and got the typical run around.

I talked to Toyota people as high up as allowed possible and they insist nothing

is wrong and there is nothing I can do. They made many contradictive statements

any couldnt explain why it occurs sometimes and not others under same tempature

conditions. They acknowledged that the "reving" does occur and told me it happens in a

very low percentage of Toyotas, but in the same sentence, they tell me that it is normal.

They cant explain why my '05 NEVER does this. And they certainly cant show me

another '04 Corolla that does it. How can I trust what these people are telling me? They admit there is NOTHING they can do to fix it. It sounds like they are hinting that I trade it in a pawn it off on the next person. I am a "perfect" customer and they dont seem at all phased by the fact that I threated to trade them both in on a pair of Hondas. It is occuring ALOT more oftern now, and at tempatures up to 55 degrees. Things are NOT adding up here at all.

Please review my video and let me know if any other Coroalla owners are having the same issue. The problem starts about 1 min. into the video footage. I also have a more video of it "reving itself" and of it starting perfectly normal at 29,000 miles, (before the original warranty expired). I am very embarresed about this entire situation as I normally have nothing but positive words to say about Toyota. Thanks in advance for any advice or suggestions. The reason why I went with Toyota was to avoid such issues. I can not express how disappointed I am in both this problem and Toyotas handling of the problem.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2086085381190517631

Max

See the thread marked "poll: does your engine make this sound." Other people do have the issue, and that thread addresses it.

Bikeman982

See the thread marked "poll: does your engine make this sound." Other people do have the issue, and that thread addresses it.
Sounded very familiar. Seems like a plague for the Toyotas (only some) that the idle messes up. It would be wonderful if all cars never had that problem, except when they needed a tune up. The old carburated cars used to have similar problems and the corrective action was to do rebuilds on them. Now with fuel injection, mass airflow devices and computerized ignition, timing and various inputs it is difficult to determine successful repairs that are permanent.

 

 

How many manual cars have you owned in the past? Now the RPMs jumping up and down is kind of strage, but every manual trans I've ever owned has reved high during warmup. Much more during the winter. Up to 2500 or even 3000K RPMs is normal. This is perfecly normal.

Overall, it doesn't seem like that big of a deal as long as it runs okay once it's warmed up.

Your 05 probably is different because it has a electronic throttle and your 04 has a cable connected to your gas pedel.

I don't see any real problem with what your car is doing. You might want to check your spark plugs and overall tune up because the jumping RPMs is strange, but not the high idle.

Does the problem go away once the engine has warmed up? What kind of fuel economy are you getting with the affected Corolla?

Bikeman982

I am glad I live in a little warmer climate. Seems like Toyotas are prone to misbehave in colder weather. Idling problems are plagueing many people. The information I get from reading up on the autos is that you should give it at least one minute after you first start it up, before you put it in gear and drive away. That gives the engine time to warm up, get the fluids circulating and prevent damage to it. It also warms up many more components and gives them time to get lubricated. Hope this helps.

Couple observations form the video.

1) The behavior is very specific and consistent. Thsi si good, erratic behavior is harder to diagnose.

2) The idle is controlled by a electronic throttle. The intake air temperature, engine coolant temperature, the manifold aboslute pressure sensor (not 100% sure if this is used for idle), halofect sensor (engine RPM), throttle position sensor.

3) You said the problem goes away when it's warmed up. So that isolates the problem to the portion of the program in the ECU that controls cold startup operation.

There's no check engine light, so it's not a short circuit in a sensor. Whatever the problem is, the sensors appear to the ECU to be operating normally.

Here's the problem as I see it.

A) The idle starts to "run away".

default_cool the idle hits approx. 2500 RPM and the throttle suddenly shuts and the idle drops back to 1800RPM (correct idle speed for a cold engine)

C) THIS IS NOT NORMAL. THe dealre wants ot sweep this under the rug.

Off hand I'd say your engiens gets stuck in a faulty "control loop" in the ECU. The idle speed can increase normally to 2500 in extremely cold weather. It also could increase if the RPM sensor was malfunctioning or if the throttle position sensor was manfunctioning.

I had this happen on a 1991 Toyota Tercel around 1995 with about the same number of miles on it. IF my memoery is good, the problem was related to a vacuum line that was leaking or loose. The difference is that in 1991, the throttle was not electronic. The idle speed was adjusted with a set screw on the throttle. The auto/choke unit I believe was vacuum controlled.

1- Rule out any air leaks in the throttle body. 2 have all vacuum lines checked. 3 - check those funky solinoids and valves on the emissions control system (EGR valve, evap system) I not too familiar but I know that can cause issues 4 - Replace the ECU. 5 - Call or e-mail CARTALK RADIO. Those 2 MIT guys know everything!!!

I am glad I live in a little warmer climate. Seems like Toyotas are prone to misbehave in colder weather. Idling problems are plagueing many people. The information I get from reading up on the autos is that you should give it at least one minute after you first start it up, before you put it in gear and drive away. That gives the engine time to warm up, get the fluids circulating and prevent damage to it. It also warms up many more components and gives them time to get lubricated. Hope this helps.

Most manauls recommend approx. 10 seconds or enough time for the idle to settle from the initial start sequence. They recommend against idling for long periods. Oil pumps are positive diplacement. After only a few dozen RPM, the oil has reaches every part of the engine and is at full pressure. ( watch a car that has a oil pressure gague sometime). Engine coolant is not needed AT ALL for at least the first 20-30 seconds. It takes that much time to heat up the cylinder liner and engine block. Modern engines have few hot spots and are designed to run hotter for better effeciency and emissions.

Personally, I give my '04 Accord about 5 seconds before I back out of my garage. I've doen this for the last 2 years. I have a very short 2 miles commute to work. I estimate that in 25,000 miles, it's been started over 2000 times and never allowed to warmup more than 10-15 seconds. I have no problems with the car.

On the flip side, I allowed my '91 Tercel to warm-up for over 5 minuts in the winter when I lived in Michigan because it was parked outside, took forever to warm-up and I needed that long to clear the frost inside the car. Not suprisingly the exhaust rusted out after 6 years. The drivetrain istself was bullet proof. Nothing could kill that car. I was a teenage, trust me, I tried. I drove for 2 years with a CEL. The car ran fine and it wasn't worth fixing on $2000 basic tranportation.

I suspect Toyota is sourcing cheap ECU's and possible cheap electric throttle bodies.

See the thread marked "poll: does your engine make this sound." Other people do have the issue, and that thread addresses it.

I am working on it. Still reading and connecting the dots. Very informative thread. Thanks!

Does the problem go away once the engine has warmed up? What kind of fuel economy are you getting with the affected Corolla?

Yes. Once it is over its little fit and the engine is warm, the problem does go away. I will start monitoring the fuel economy immediately. That is a great question.

When the problem is happening, does pushing on the pedal and reving the engine make it stop? What happens if you start driving it? Does it stop if you push in the clutch? If you turn off the engine and start it bakc up again right away, does it still do it the seocnd time?

Like I said before, check vaccum lines and all of the emissions control stuff.

It also could increase if the RPM sensor was malfunctioning or if the throttle position sensor was manfunctioning.

If your RPM sensor (crankshaft position sensor) was failing, your computer would lose sync and shut down. If your TPS was failing, you would stall because the IAC valve would never be turned on to compensate for the fact that you have taken your foot off the gas pedal.

Off hand I'd say your engine's got stuck in a faulty "control loop" in the ECU. The idle speed can increase normally to 2500 in extremely cold weather.

You're the first person to agree with me that it may be a control loop problem.

I placed my Matrix beside my friend's Corolla with the same engine and left them both in the cold all day and when we started both cars after 8 hours of sitting, his never reved above 1800 and mine went up to 2300 before it began to pulse for 1 minute (during second minute following startup). From what I have read, the computer has an idea what the maximum rpm should be for the amount of fuel it is injecting and the ambiant temperature. Whenever the rpms go above the anticipated speed, the computer has reason to believe that there has been a breakage in the drive train, and it takes action to temporarily shut down the engine to limit damage. Once the rpms fall below a threshold, the computer switches everything back on. This cycle repeats until the peak rpms stop exceeding the upper threshold. This happens naturally during the 3rd minute because the warmer engine no longer requires nor receives as much fuel.

The key to this problem is determining why in some engines the computer believes that it needs to use so much fuel to warm the car up compared to other engines which rev lower and never pulse. So far, a minute, difficult to identify, air leak has been put forward as the most plausable explanation for the need for excess fuel. Pulling the ECU computer fuse resets the computer and immediately forces the computer to forget about what it thinks is an air leak. Over the next 2 days, during normal driving, the computer will indirectly re-discover the presence of the air leak using the oxygen sensor and will re-calculate the amount of fuel that should be burned during future cold startups. Oxygen sensors do not function during the first several minutes of a cold startup so the computer is doing thing mostly on faith.

1- Rule out any air leaks in the throttle body. 2 have all vacuum lines checked. 3 - check those funky solinoids and valves on the emissions control system (EGR valve, evap system) I not too familiar but I know that can cause issues 4 - Replace the ECU. 5 - Call or e-mail CARTALK RADIO. Those 2 MIT guys know everything!!!

Doing all this cost money if the car is off warranty and if it still on warranty, Toyota will probably not want to authorize more than $400 of time (as was in my case) since so far all mechanics in North America who have tackled this issue have failed to find a remedy.

To reprogram the computer so there is no runaway control loop will cost millions of dollars in development and EPA re-certification. Changing one line of computer code runs the risk of creating a new bug that could ultimately affect millions of vehicles which would otherwise never have any problems.

This issue occurs on post 2002 Corollas, Matrix,Vibe, and now Echo. They all share a common computer program.

When the problem is happening, does pushing on the pedal and reving the engine make it stop?

 

No. Not at all. It revs up as much gas as I give it, then when it comes back down, it goes right back in its "fit thingy" right where it left off.

What happens if you start driving it?

Great question. I just uncovered an answer to this question and I can assure you that it is quite interesting. I started filming after letting the car warm up for only 10 seconds in 30 degree tempatures. I am going to film a 2nd take (my wife will be passanger/videographer) in the morning. It takes a long time to upload my video to the internet and then it has to get approved before it actually make it to a link on the net. Stay tuned though. I will have it in a few days. I think this new video could help assess/rule out WTF is going on and possible prove that the fuel consumption is being negatively affect. It may even imply that this problem is much more than cosmetic.

Does it stop if you push in the clutch?

Oh no. It just does it.

If you turn off the engine and start it bakc up again right away, does it still do it the seocnd time?

I dont know for sure, but I would be very surprised if it didnt do it upon 2nd start up.

Thanks for the help/info

It also could increase if the RPM sensor was malfunctioning or if the throttle position sensor was manfunctioning.

If your RPM sensor (crankshaft position sensor) was failing, your computer would lose sync and shut down. If your TPS was failing, you would stall because the IAC valve would never be turned on to compensate for the fact that you have taken your foot off the gas pedal.

 

I did have a fuel injected motorcycle that would not rev above 10,000RPM. I sold it for parts and never did solve hte problem, but to this day I think there was some issue with the cam position sensor or srank speed sensor (I don't like to call it a crank positon sensor because it's just a halofect sensor... there is no "home" position.) It ran fine other than at high RPM. I've also disconnected the throttle positon sensor before and the bike would idle because the throttle does not completely close on that particular throttle body, it's adjusted by a set screw. I suspect the Corolla is the same way. But it definitely4 would not be driveable, so I agree this is not the source. I was just listing every remote possibility.

I think this issue should be covered under warranty because it was originally documented while it was still under teh mileage limit and has not yet been resolved. This is not a new problem, only one that thye have been unable to fix for several thousand miles. Acutally if they try a certain nubmer of timesot fix the same problem and cannot resolve it, they might even be foreced to buy back the car in some states. This is my opinon anyway.

If you permit me to indulge myself, I would like to answer some of the same questions of post number 12 as it applies in my case. Our answers agree in most of these cases.

When the problem is happening, does pushing on the pedal and reving the engine make it stop?

No. Not at all. It revs up as much gas as I give it, then when it comes back down, it goes right back in its "fit thingy" right where it left off.

Mine does exactly the same thing. As soon as I touch the gas pedal, the TPS sensor gets activated and that cancels the idle mode in the computer, so things work perfectly until I remove my foot from the gas pedal and idle mode gets reactivated. Remember there is only a 1 minute time window per day when pulsing can take place.

What happens if you start driving it?

As soon as I start driving it (placing my foot on the gas pedal), again, the TPS cancels the idle mode and the car drives with no surging. Fuel economy is fantastic - 32 mpg (US) year round with A/C in summer and winter tires. This is about 75% highway driving. This is why I believe the issue is mostly cosmetic and why Toyota feels no great legal threat if they fail to come up with a technical solution.

Does it stop if you push in the clutch?

If the clutch is pushed in or if the clutch is left out but the transmission is in neutral, then the engine pulses because there is no load on it and the rpms can build up as high as they can naturally go given the amount of energy being burned.

I will see what happens if I set the car in motion during the 2nd minute when the pulsing is occuring and leave it in gear without my foot on the gas pedal and see if the car coasts along in a bucking manner.

If you turn off the engine and start it back up again right away, does it still do it the seocnd time?

 

No, this is a one time only per day event and only in winter. Once the engine has gone through the 2nd minute of the first startup of the day, the engine oil has become warm enough and the computer has noted a certain amount of information to prevent the pulsing from re-occurring unless the car sits another 6 to 8 hours undisturbed. It is as if the computer has a timer running that keeps it from repeating the same behaviour within a fixed delay.

For me it was often a 2 event per day thing because I would drive my car to work and let it sit 8 hours there. For most people who restart their cars several times per day (to run short errands), they will only experience the event one time. And if the car spends the night in the freezing cold but the car is not started until the following noon after the temperature has risen above 35 to 40 degrees, the pulsing might not occur at all.

This is why it is very difficult to get the car to fail on demand in front of the dealer. You have to leave it outdoors at the dealership the night before and keep the keys so that the dealer's employees don't accidentally shuffle the car into the garage in the morning. And you have to arrive at the dealership early in the morning before the temperature warms up. And you have to pick a night when the temperature will fall below freezing. The dealership will be under pressure to get the event recorded on their scan tool and you have to be sure that the engine never gets started before they completely hook their scan tool up in the snow filled parking lot. Bringing the car indoors for a scan test will destroy the opportunity. It has to be done outdoors, and once the engine is started with the transmission in neutral and the clutch out, no one must touch the gas pedal during the first 3 - 4 minutes.

My dealer was able to record the event properly the first time, but when we repeated the test a few days later because his remedy had failed, the dealer "reported" that the car did not fail. My fatal mistake was trusting that the dealership's employees would carry out the second test exactly the same way they carried out the first test. It was a snowy day for the second test and the dealership was backed up with emergency repairs and I know that my car was looked at only after noon and not at 8 AM in the morning and I don't know how many times my engine was re-started that day before the mechanic finally got his hands on it. I had to pay an independant garage to repeat the test a third time so that I could counter the contradictory evidence created by the botched second test. Don't fall into the same trap as me - keep the car keys with you and be present each time your test is repeated. If you are going to make a sound recording, keep the microphone near the exhaust pipe and not near the front of the car as you don't want to pick up all the extra noise from the fan belts.

I did have a fuel injected motorcycle that would not rev above 10,000RPM. I sold it for parts and never did solve the problem, but to this day I think there was some issue with the cam position sensor or crank speed sensor (I don't like to call it a crank positon sensor because it's just a hall effect sensor... there is no "home" position.) It ran fine other than at high RPM. I've also disconnected the throttle positon sensor before and the bike would idle because the throttle does not completely close on that particular throttle body, it's adjusted by a set screw. I suspect the Corolla is the same way. But it definitely would not be driveable, so I agree this is not the source. I was just listing every remote possibility.

The crankshaft position sensors on these cars are quite complex because, unlike the cars of old, when they get started, the firing sequence may not at all be in the same sequence as the distributor wire sequence would be if we still had distributors. I believe the modified firing sequence is to optimize the piston movement at startup. So it is crucial for the computer to know exactly where the crankshaft is positioned and if it suspects that it is out of sync, it aborts.

I believe the throttle plate on the Corolla completely closes in the bore and the idle air bypass channel completely routes around the plate. Since all idle bypass air is under the control of the computer, there is no set-screw adjustment like in other cars. The computer has the complete freedom to set the idle speed and needs no manual correction from a set screw.

I think this issue should be covered under warranty because it was originally documented while it was still under the mileage limit and has not yet been resolved. This is not a new problem, only one that they have been unable to fix for several thousand miles. Acutally if they try a certain number of times to fix the same problem and cannot resolve it, they might even be forced to buy back the car in some states. This is my opinon anyway.

Some states (unfortunately only a few) have lemon buy back laws. The problem is that the manufacturers can rightfully claim that the cars are drivable and that the owners suffer no increase in operating costs. A potential problem arises when it is time to resell the noisy car and the owner is faced with a public that instinctively has a prejudice against anything that sounds (proved by these polls) different from the average. This places the burden of proof on the owner of the car to prove that he/she would have received a higher resale price had they not disclosed this issue. It is foolish to not disclose as sooner or later, the buyer of the noisy car will be knocking on your door asking for their money back because they have found a mechanic who will claim that the noise is the result of a hidden defect. Even if Toyota/Pontiac will provide a document to guarantee that no hidden defect exists, the buyer will still say that had the noise been disclosed, they would have refused the sale, and that would have been their right.

That is why internet forums like this will be helpful in making all parties aware of the potential suffering that owners of these noisy cars may eventially face.

If you think it might be a ECU problem, have you unplugged the battery to reset everything? It could also be the idle sensor control (or whatever Toyota calls it).

Overall, I wouldn't worry about it too much. Your car isn't broken. It's a anoying problem, but I don't think your car is hurting because of it.

Keep records when you trade your car in. If you loose money in your trade in because of the problem, then contact a lawyer with the paperwork of them not being able to fix the problem under warranty. That is probably the only thing you can really do. Just make sure you don't loose money because of the problem. It sounds like it's not going away any time soon.

I acually have a lemon law suit against another car company right now and I might loose because I got a decent trade in on it. Despite the car giving us headachs the whole time we had it and the car company not being able to fix multiple problems, we might loose simple because we got good money for it when we traded it in. We bought the car in a state that has one of the worst lemon laws to protect the car owner though. Some states acually have good laws. In WI, if a dealer has to buy a car back, they might acually have to pay twice the price of the car!!!!

Also, I gotta disagree with a new ECU program costing millions of dollars and having to be recertified to meet emissions. The Mazda Speed Protege had multiple TSBs for ECU reflashes. I acually almost bought one, but I got a little scared when they had a 2nd TSB ECU reflash. I acually had a dealer look up the first one and I took the car for another test drive and it did fix a bogging problem. Not sure what the other TSB was suppost to fix, but Mazda couldn't make up their mind on how the car should be tunned or something. The car just souned bugged to me and I ran away from it.

No more boy toy car shopping for me anymore. Just simple Toyota that works. As long as I have a fast project car for weekend enjoyment, or when I get a speed bug, I don't care about driving a econobox during the week.

If you think it might be a ECU problem, have you unplugged the battery to reset everything? It could also be the idle sensor control (or whatever Toyota calls it).

Overall, I wouldn't worry about it too much. Your car isn't broken. It's a anoying problem, but I don't think your car is hurting because of it.

Keep records when you trade your car in. If you loose money in your trade in because of the problem, then contact a lawyer with the paperwork of them not being able to fix the problem under warranty. That is probably the only thing you can really do. Just make sure you don't loose money because of the problem. It sounds like it's not going away any time soon.

....Also, I gotta disagree with a new ECU program costing millions of dollars and having to be recertified to meet emissions.....

 

We have a report of an owner replacing his ECU but that did not help. If there is an ECU issue, it is not the actual computer hardware, rather the software program itself. So simply re-flashing with the same computer code will not help. We have unpluged the battery and the car works perfectly for 2 days until it re-learns a new fuel trim and the higher idle rpms and consequential pulsing return. A microscopic air leak in an un-metered vaccum line might explain this.

We have also done scans on the idle speed control (IAC) valve and we know that this dvice is working perfectly.

I am more interested in gathering statistics for a potential damage claim than looking for an elusive solution that has so far evaded many of the best mechanics on the continent. Even the Toyota team at their head office in Canada is at a loss and has passed the problem on to their engineering team in Japan.

I don't expect a to see a miracle solution coming from a forum member given the monumental effort that has already taken place in the last 12 months.

Indeed an update to an ECU program might not cost millions of dollars in re-certification. But that depends on exactly what part of the program needs to be changed. If the change still comes under the control of the oxygen sensor, then no re-certification may be required , because the already certified O2 sensor software is remaining intact.

However in the case of my pulsing idle, it is occurring before the watchdog O2 sensor becomes operational, and this is a critical time when the computer must propose the fuel and air ratio that theoretically creates the least amount of emissions. This is an engine control procedure that might require re-certification IMHO.

Thanks for your comments.

My 03 five speed does this since new, only in cold weather, and not all the time even if it's cold.

I called an independent mechanic who is known for performance issues. He said it's just the nature of the Corolla computer.

It sounds crazy but goes away pretty fast.

If there's a solution, I'd like to have it. Sounds like the computer code.

If there's a solution, I'd like to have it. Sounds like the computer code.

I hope you voted in the poll as you claim to have this same issue.

Sounds like the computer code. There appear to be too many parts of the code that work independantly.

Some software routines tell the engine to idle faster for a strategic reason and other routines seem to be looking out for excess idle speed and tell the engine to idle slower. When one routine is in conflict with another, there does not seem to be any arbitrator to reconcile and assure a smooth compromise.

The software seems very robust when dealing with situations when different engine sensors report non-coherent readings, but the software seems weak in dealing with sensors that are just at the limit of their tolerence.

I will be happy to PM everyone with this issue if the day ever arrives when Toyota delivers a software patch.

Until then keep all your bills and print a dump of the threads from the different forums as proof of the way the public feels about this noise.

A major thread I started last year at MATRIXOWNERS.COM full of comments was accidentally erased by the site administrator, so grab as much hard copy as you can in case you ever have to file a claim for a loss in resale value.

P.S. The poll is located at:

https://www.corolland.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=17277

Bikeman982

Keep all the paperwork and make sure you document everything. Someday it may be necesssary to prove you were not happy with this manufacurers defect. If a patch or corrective action comes down from Toyota I am hoping they notify all the owners affected by it.

Don't bet on it.

The famous Corolla sulphur "farts" TSB was only disclosed to owners who complained.

friendly_jacek

As someone affected by the sulfur fiasco, I can attest to the above.

Toyota ussued the sulfur TSB only because of pressure from EPA. Since Toyota ignored the owners complaints, we organized ourself and chanelled our complaints to EPA. Some officials at EPA were shocked that Toyota would shot itself in the foot not responding to this stinking issue.

And even then toyota would drag its feet untill 2004 with the fix. As you know, 2004 was the first year with low sulfur fuel in greater US, so they made sure few customers woul demand the fix. Even dealers were not notified about the TSB properly, some customers had to show up with own copy of TSB.

The moral of the story is, don't count on the kindness of corporate world.

Coming back to the idle issue, even living in mild climate I'm surprised how hi my 03 can idle at start. No oscilating though.

Make sure you prewarm the engine before selling it.

My 03 five speed does this since new, only in cold weather, and not all the time even if it's cold.

I called an independent mechanic who is known for performance issues. He said it's just the nature of the Corolla computer.

It sounds crazy but goes away pretty fast.

If there's a solution, I'd like to have it. Sounds like the computer code.

It's not just the corolla. It's EVERY 5sp I've ever owned. The ECU can't run the car right untill the 02 sensor gets hot enough. I think manual cars rev a little higher then auto's because of the transmission, but I would be worried if my car didn't idle high during warmup in the winter time.

friendly_jacek

The more I think about, there are more paralels between this and the sulfur issue. The sulfur problem boiled down to the some carrs running richer than they should, effectively reducing SO2 (only modestly stinky) to H2S (one of the most smelly substences on earth, rotteneggs).

Now, since 2004, the US fuel is required to be low-sulfur, so one does not see (I mean smell) the H2S issue anymore. Yet, rich mixture at idle would increase RPM, to the extend that the ECU would have to intervene, cutting the speed down. Under some circumstances that would produce an oscillation pattern.

If my hypothesis is correct, the cars affected by this would also have poorer economy, exaust smelling rich on warmup and negative long term fuel trim on OBD2 scan. My LTFT used to be -10% and I reduced that to -3% after vigorous cleaning of the MAF sensor.

Max

Now, since 2004, the US fuel is required to be low-sulfur, so one does not see (I mean smell) the H2S issue anymore. Yet, rich mixture at idle would increase RPM, to the extend that the ECU would have to intervene, cutting the speed down. Under some circumstances that would produce an oscillation pattern.

If my hypothesis is correct, the cars affected by this would also have poorer economy

My car still reeks of rotten eggs, and it does the same high idle/idle hunt mentioned in this

and other threads. I still have the TSB sitting on my desk, just never got around to getting the

problem fixed. My fuel economy, though, is great.



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