Corollas2019-23ToyotasTech

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By montreal, March 29, 2005

Does your engine sound exactly like this when cold(read post first)?  

  1. 1. Does your engine sound exactly like this when cold(read post first)?

    • Yes, mine sounds exactly like the recording
      0
    • No
      0
    • Yes, but it sounds different
      0


See every reply in these pages:



Update: December 19, 2007:

No need to read through all the pages of this topic, Toyota has introduced a technical service bulletin to deal with this problem, number TSB2754.

A copy of the bulletin is viewable at this thread (first post).

http://matrixowners.com/index.php?showtopic=72524

To know if you have a problem requiring this solution, listen to the audio recording at the following link to shared thread containing MP3 recording, click on attachment at bottom of first post:

http://forums.genvibe.com/zerothread?id=20409

===================================================================

Initial Post starts after following consolidated statistics, as of Dec 9, 2006

Poll results

Corolland .............Yes= 2...............No= 21...........Yes,but different sound= 2

MatrixOwners...........Yes= 9...............No= 52...........Yes,but different sound= 1

GenVibe................Yes= 11...............No= 34...........Yes,but different sound= 0

ToyotaNation-Corolla...Yes= 4...............No= 26...........Yes,but different sound= 0

ToyotaNation-Matrix....Yes= 0...............No= 15...........Yes,but different sound= 1

The creator of poll....Yes= 1

Total..................Yes= 27..............No= 148..........Yes,but different sound= 4

Grand total = 179

Percentage with identical sound = 15.1%

Percentage without sound = 82.7%

Percentage with different sound = 2.2%

While the polls are anonymous, there are posts in all these forums by owners claiming to have the identical issue.

For the purpose of identifying which models and production years are involved, they are as follows in no particular order:

There are no automatic transmissions among this group.

From MATRIXOWNERS.COM

MaidkarenD......'03..Matrix.XR......location:Illinois

Lime............'03..Matrix.XR......location:Ontario

PegMatrix.......'03..Matrix.XR......location:Manitoba

oracle (friend).'04..Matrix.XR......location:Ontario

Purplenv........'03..Matrix.XR......location:Ontario

Bridgejoe.......'03..Matrix.........location:Minnesota

dominator.......'04..Matrix ........location:Ontario

Truckerbob......'03..Matrix.........location:Ontario

chmodx..........'05..Matrix.........location:Virginia

TheCrispyness...'04..Matrix.........location:Illinois

dexter..........'03..Matrix.XR......location:Ontario

Montreal........'03..Matrix.........location:Quebec

Ontario member..'03..Matrix.........location:Ontario

From COROLLAND.COM

BobLevine........'03..Corolla......location:North Carolina

euzeka...........'04..Corolla......location:Quebec

Ti-Jean (friend).'03..Vibe.........location:Quebec

amember..........'03..Corolla......location:Quebec

Mr.Ed............'04..Corolla......location:?

Lethal 7.........'04..Vibe.........location:Illinois

From GENVIBE.COM

Heh!heh!..........'03..Vibe.........location:Ontario

joatmon...........'03..Vibe.........location:Maryland

martinz...........'03..Vibe.........location:Ontario

Andrew-4ce........'03..Vibe.........location:Ontario

burkeyro..........'03..Vibe.........loaction:Ohio

Neouka............'03..Vibe.........location:Ontario

stoutvibe.........'??..Vibe.........location:Minnesota

sylvainber........'04..Vibe.........location:Illinois

From TOYOTANATION.COM (Corolla)

John2000ve........'00..Corolla......location:Texas

CorollaULEV.......'03..Corolla......location:Virginia

AUDI..............'03..Corolla......location:Ontario

rated_w...........'01..Corolla......location:Ontario

From TOYOTANATION.COM (Matrix)

Salsa03...........'03..Vibe.........location:Ontario

Other stats

Thread Hits

Corolland................22676

Matrixowners..............6418

GenVibe...................5959

ToyotaNation-Corolla......2717

ToyotaNation-Matrix.......1738

Audio recording downloads..1165

Links to polls

http://matrixowners.com/forums/Does-your-e...old-t38489.html

http://forums.genvibe.com/zerothread?id=15929

http://www.toyotanation.com/forum/t72739.html

http://www.toyotanation.com/forum/t72737.html

Links to technical discussion.

http://forums.genvibe.com/zerothread?id=9403

Listen to the sound recording of my engine and please participate in the poll questions which appear at the end of this post. The recording last 20 seconds and captures an event that typically lasts about 40 seconds. This happens at least once a day in winter since my 2003 Matrix was new. Matrix and Corolla use the same engine.

Link to shared thread containing MP3 recording, click on attachment at bottom of first post:

http://forums.genvibe.com/zerothread?id=20409

In another thread titled "idle speed pulses (hunts) when starting", some forum members participated in a discussion aimed at finding a technical solution for a rare characteristic that affected a small number of Corolla and Matrix owners in the colder climates of North America.

It is only because Toyota head office has recently thrown in the towel that I regretably feel obliged to place my complaint in the public domain. Also, there has been some confusion as to what the sound is really like. I am pleased to offer for the first time ever a sound recording of the event.

What we all hoped to eliminate is a unique sound that our engines make during the second minute following a startup after the cars have sat in below freezing temperatures for a minimum of 6 - 8 hours.

For the most part, this issue appears to be cosmetic. Neither drivability nor fuel economy are negatively affected. Nor do these cars pollute.

Many dealerships have made honest, but unsuccessful, attempts to find a solution.

The turning point for me was when I realized that I could pull the fuse on the engine computer and make this sound go away for 2 days at a time. I concluded that no single engine component was defective, rather that all my engine components behaved in a unique combination so as to challenge my engine computer to its limit in order to properly manage the engine when cold.

The sound you are hearing is when the engine software can no longer reconcile all its objectives regarding long term pollution control and keep the idle speed smooth at the same time.

If I were Toyota, I would not want to change the multi-million dollar software of their engine computer in order to satisfy a handfull of unlucky owners. Nevertheless, I paid a full price for my new car and did not end up with one that sounds like all the other Toyotas in my city. Toyota writes that my car is "not abnormal”. But it doesn’t sound normal to me. How about you?

Please vote in the poll and post answers to the following:

1) how objectionable would you find this sound were your car to make it at the same frequency and for the same time duration as mine, and

2) if you were offered for sale a second-hand Corolla or Matrix that makes this sound, would you offer less money to purchase it, and if so, how much less money, bearing in mind that this issue is strictly cosmetic?

Thanks in advance for your participation.

Thant's kinda funky, but not in a good way.

Answer to #1-If I had had the car since new and was used to it, I guess the noise wouldn't bother me too much-however-

#2-No way would I pay full book price for a vehicle if I new it made that noise. I don't think I'd even put an offer on it, even with dealership reassurance that it was cosmetic.

I think I would try to trade it back to the dealership it was purchased from. Let them drive it when it's nice and warm, the sales dept will never know. As far as they are concerned, Toyota says it's OK. Then, that dealership will sell it to someone else(hopefully at auction), and say it's a used car, nothing wrong with it. Maybe you have a cold blooded car, it needs to live in a warmer environment? j/k

Maybe you have a cold blooded car, it needs to live in a warmer environment? j/k

That's probably the best possible outcome - the cars ends up wintering in Florida.

 

However where I live, there are tough consumer protection laws about disclosure and I don't intend to hide anything about this car, especially given that it will mis-perform on queue as soon as the weather drops below 32 degrees F.

Another problem is I don't want to trade my car back to a dealer. I have always earned more money on a private sale.

So it looks to me like the public is saying here that I did not receive full value when I bought my car new and if true, I believe that I should be compensated. And so should all the other Corolla owners who posted in the other thread "Idle Speed Pulses..".

Thanks for your comments.

  • 55 posts

sounds like a lemon to me , that sucks but I would do like the rest of the folks here say only thing different is that I would go to another dealer, or better yet bring it to another dealer and have them diagnose the problem then bring that repair estimate invoice back to the original scummers that you were dealing with in the first place

Max

My idle pulses, but the car does not make that sound. If it did, I'd be screaming at my dealer to repair it. I would not purchase a car that makes that noise at any price. Do you have lemon laws where you are? ...Canada, yes?

How do I participate in this poll?? default_unsure

I only see the <New Poll> button at the top of the thread.

(I would) bring it to another dealer and have them diagnose the problem, then bring that repair estimate invoice back to the original scummers that you were dealing with in the first place

 

I brought my car to an independant garage run by a famous ex race car driver and automotive journalist and radio personality.

We ran a scan test on the car and we could not see anything wrong with the readout.

An original scan test was done by the Toyota dealer and the results forwarded to the Toyota head office.

It is precicely because the engine computer can see nothing terribly wrong with the engine sensors that has prompted Toyota to abandon all guaranty work. They know, like me, that we have a one in ten thousand type car that cannot be repaired without changing the whole engine.

They are not prepared to change the engines of what I estimate are a few hundred owners of Toyota cars in North America who have this problem.

Why should they? Toyota already has a few million happy customers who don't have this problem.

Thanks for your reply.

Is yours the only Matrix in the area with this problem? If so, you've definitely got a lemon. Toyota needs to either fix it or buy it back from you. Face it, nobody's gonna buy it knowing it is doing this. I know I wouldn't.

I've heard of that before - I actually got my 2002 to do the exact same thing. Happened when I was checking the valves - after assembling the valvecover - I accidentally left off the PCV hose. The engine surged and idle in that exact manor. After replacing the hose - all was well. If they have checked over all the engine - I wouldn't doubt a slight crack in one of the vacuum hoses or fittings, especially if the car did that as new. Hope that you get some resolution - a fix or have Toyota buy it back.

To aswer your questions:

(1) I would not stand for a brand new car making that type of noise and behaving that manor - completely unacceptable.

(2) I don't believe that there is any amount of a discount, including free of charge, that I would make me buy that car used.

My idle pulses, but the car does not make that sound.  If it did, I'd be screaming at my dealer to repair it. I would not purchase a car that makes that noise at any price.  Do you have lemon laws where you are?  ...Canada, yes?

Yes we have lemon laws here.

 

The challenge that I am facing is to prove that a car can be a lemon even if the problem is not driveability.

By showing that many forum members consider this sound to be objectionable enough to result in them refusing to buy this car, I am able to prove that I have suffered a monetary damage.

On the other hand, if half the Toyota engines built today made this sound and the public was used to it, then I would not have an issue. When I first bought my car, my dealer tried to convince me that many 2003 Corolla and Matrix new generation motors made this noise.

Part of my problem was that I could not find the proper words to describe this sound, so the dealer never really understood what I was experiencing.

Today I say that my motor sounds like a donkey braying, and now people seem to take me seriously.

But no words are as good as the real audio recording.

How do I participate in this poll?? default_unsure I only see the <New Poll> button at the top of the thread.

I don't know how to set up a poll.

 

Please simply post an answer where you express your opinion on the two questions that I listed in the original post.

Thanks

Guest cobrajet25

My suggestion to you is this...stop being nice. The time for being reasonable has clearly passed, and now it is time to raise hell. I bought a used 1992 Nissan 300ZX about 8 years ago. I was assured when I bought it that it had "been fully checked out by their certified mechanics" and had no major problems. The next day (after I bought it), I noticed a huge puddle of oil underneath the engine. All I had done was drive the car home, so I knew that I did not cause this. Turns out the car had a badly leaking rear main. I would have just taken this as part of buying a used car if it had not been for the fact that they insisted to me that the car had been "checked out" and did not have any problems. When I called the sales manager, we politely hemmed and hawed about it for awhile, then the B A S T A R D HUNG UP ON ME! Uhhh...excuse me?!?! I drove straight to the dealership (at over 100mph), and parked the car up on the curb about six inches in front of the showroom doors.

I got out, ran into the showroom, and at the top of my voice DEMANDED to see the OWNER of the dealership. I was standing right next to the dealership's communications room, so everyone on the phone with these guys at that moment heard my ranting. There were people in the showroom who were actually in the process of buying cars,and they just looked at me incredulously. The sales manager's former roomate's undersecretary's second assistant or some damn thing came out and tried to calm me down, but I demanded to see the OWNER. When I was told repeatedly that the owner was "out of town", I then demanded to see the **** who hung up on me. He meekly came out of the back and tried to usher me into some back room so as not to freak out the potential customers he had, and after 10 minutes I finally relented. We went into the back room and started SCREAMING at each other. Finally, after ten minutes of this, the guy quietly says, "Why don't we just fix the car for you?" Hallelujah!!! It turned out that the crankshaft was bad as well (the bad rear main seal had somehow ground part of it away), so the entire bill for the job turned out to be over $1300...and that was $1300 they had NO INTENTION of spending until I went down there.

Sometimes you have to get NASTY with these guys, or they will walk all over you. Not necessary the dealer, but you definitely need to start chewing someone's ######...maybe at Toyota's central office. If you let them convince you that your problem is not a big deal, not only are you doing a disservice to yourself but also to everyone else that has this problem. I wouldn't accept that problem from a new Kia, much less a new Toyota. Give 'em Hell. Regards, Aaron

Is yours the only Matrix in the area with this problem?  If so, you've definitely got a lemon.  Toyota needs to either fix it or buy it back from you.  Face it, nobody's gonna buy it knowing it is doing this.  I know I wouldn't.

From the participation rate in the other thread devoted to finding a technical solution, I estimate that only one in ten thousand cars have this problem.

 

These cars cannot be fixed without changing over a dozen engine parts, a few being buried deep inside the engine block.

IMO, that is why Toyota cannot commit themselves to proactively addressing this problem.

My suggestion to you is this...stop being nice.  .... Give 'em Hell.  Regards, Aaron

There is nothing nice about what I am doing.

 

I feel very sorry for a large successful corporation that has allowed this problem to come this far due to the complete indifference of a handful of customer service and technical specialists who couldn't evaluate properly the situation that they have found themselves in.

They had plenty of warning from me and a lot of constructive criticism. They chose to ignore it all.

Now they are paying dearly for their arrogance.

We have faced different situations, each requiring different responses.

Thanks for sharing a difficult experience in your life.

I have both a 2003 Corolla, and a 2004 Matrix. Neither of them does the idle hunting like yours. They are both automatics. I wouldn't put up with the way your car is running. You bought a new car, and shouldn't have to deal with this.

Don't know if your microphone was next to the engine making the sounds louder than when heard from the cabin, but my 2003 CE 5 speed does this on cold days in North Carolina.

Idle bounces around 2000 RPM until engine begins to warm in a minute or two.

Independent tech also says it's common in Corollas.

I don't know how to set up a poll.Please simply post an answer where you express your opinion on the two questions that I listed in the original post.

 

Thanks

just use the "new poll" link next to the new post link at the top and bottom of the page.

 

you will be asked the question, the choices and some discussion if you want any.

HTH

just use the "new poll" link next to the new post link at the top and bottom of the page. you will be asked the question, the choices and some discussion if you want any.

 

HTH

Thanks for your guidance. I tried it and it works. Hope to see any comments added to that new thread.

 

 

Mine hunts as well when it's below about 0 °C. I've never listened to it from outside the car so I can't tell if it would make the same sound as yours... but I imagine it would be close from what I hear inside. I don't really care though. Most people probably don't hear this because either:

1) they have automatics (idles a bit slower when in drive)

2) they live in warmer climates

3) they let the car warm up longer; I haven't seen it happen without having driven off on a cold engine and then put it back in neutral. When giving the engine a few minutes to warm up I've never heard the hunting (but I do this very rarely so it may just be luck).

As for resale value, just sell it in the summer ;-)

If you see the needle on your tachometer jumping up and down between 1800 and 2300 rpms 20 times over 40 seconds, then you have the same problem.

Welcome to the club.

As for resale value, just sell it in the summer ;-)

Sorry, I can't do that. Within a few months it will be starting up for the new owner again and I'll be sued for fraud.

 

That is why I am trying to get some consensus today of the incidence of this defect and how people feel in general when mass produced objects don't turn out to be all alike.

We could be talking about Sony TVs as easily as Toyota cars.

But that's a whole different forum.

Due to the merging of two similar threads into one poll thread, I copied over the following comment by Larry Roll:

Answers to your questions:

1. Highly Objectionable.

2. I would not purchase a used car demonstrating this particular behavior. However, since it appears to be a specifically cold-weather phenomenon, any potential buyer would be unaware of the situation unless the sale occurred during weather cold enough to manifest the problem, or the seller honestly disclosed the problem.

3. Toyota needs to fix the problem or replace your car. Have a few sessions with a good voice coach, and then go back to the dealership, and make sure that all discussion takes place in the center of the showroom floor and every word out of your mouth is in the loudest scream you are physically capable of producing. It woiuldn't hurt to be accompanied by an attorney and a detective from the Consumer Frauds division of your local police department.

  • 1,424 posts

1) If my car made a noise like that I'd find it utterly unacceptable, and would definately be dissatisfied with the car.

2) I think any buyer who had a brain in their head would certainly offer you less for the car. That's if they would offer you anything for the car at all. I would not offer you anything for it.

I would not offer you anything for it.

I agree with you. Thanks for answering.

 

 

If you see the needle on your tachometer jumping up and down between 1800 and 2300 rpms 20 times over 40 seconds, then you have the same problem.

Welcome to the club.

As for resale value, just sell it in the summer ;-)

Sorry, I can't do that. Within a few months it will be starting up for the new owner again and I'll be sued for fraud.

 

Yeah I have the exact same "problem" which is why I think it's more likely a design issue or perhaps something specific to a given ECU revision (I imagine they change the firmware every now and then). I imagine a lot of other corollas do that as well and people just don't care.

 

I really don't think you can be sued for fraud or anything like that over that kind of issue. People get away with much worse around here like selling cars which are dangerous to drive or completely break down (major transmission or engine failure) within a few months.

I really don't think you can be sued for fraud or anything like that over that kind of issue. People get away with much worse around here like selling cars which are dangerous to drive or completely break down (major transmission or engine failure) within a few months.

Where I live, we have some of the toughest consumer protection laws on the continent.

 

To remain silent here is judged as equivalent to fraud.

Nevertheless, I couldn't live with myself if the person who ultimately buys my car would be unhappy, even though I know that the issue is purely cosmetic and would not cause any financial burden on the buyer.

I appreciate that your trying to help me out.

The best way is to be honest in your responses to the poll plus the additional two questions asked in the first post.

In doing so, you are giving me the kind of evidence that allows me to benefit from the strong consumer protection laws we have here. That way, no buyers, including myself, will ever be hurt as a result of Toyota's one in ten thousand cosmetic defect.

P.S. It's definitely a design issue, as you suggest.



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