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Bull6791

07 Camry Burning Oil

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I know the 07 Camry with the 2azfe engine always had problems with oil consumption.

I also know that the only way to solve the problem is get a new engine or get a new car.

 

If also thought to stop the oil consumption problem I you did an oil change with very good oil and a very good oil filter it would stop the oil consumption problem.

 

4 Sundays ago I did an oil change on my 07 Camry 4 cylinder. I used VALVOLINE MAXLIFE 5 w-30 HIGH MILAGE OIL FULL SYNTHETIC with WIX filter.

The next 2 Sundays I checked the oil the oil level was full.

This Sunday I checked the oil and level was 2 quarts low.

I guess if you have a 07 CAMRY 4 cylinder with the 2azfe engine their is know way to stop the oil consumption besides get new engine or new car.

What else should I try or their is nothing else to try.

Thanks

Frank

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trap

How many weeks or miles is there between "the next 2 Sundays" and "this Sunday"??

 

Why did you let it get so low? It's making it even worse.

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With any engine with known oil consumption - you HAVE to check the oil levels often. My 2009 Matrix XRS is the same way - has the same 2.4L 2AZ-FE that is a known oil burner. I check every morning before I leave for work - also meticulously record how much it has dropped and any special circumstances that might have precipitated that oil loss. When I first got the car - it was burning oil at the rate of 1 quart every 1500 miles. That was when it had only 12K miles on it !!!! - as far as I can tell, it never saw the first oil change (filter was the factory one, near impossible to remove, drain plug showed no tool marks). Got a good deal - so I jumped on it. Couple of short oil change intervals with high mileage / diesel engine motor oils, with good filters - I got oil consumption down to pretty much a couple of ounces per 5000 mile oil change interval. Swapped to synthetic, OEM tall filter, and now running 8K oil changes - so far so good. Only one issue where it drank 4 ounces of oil on a 160 mile round trip commute - topped it off and its holding now. Will probably drop the OCI, monitor it closely, if it looks good - bump up the OCI again. Matrix rolled over 70K miles recently.

Dealing with oil consumption is not the end of the engine or car. Stick with a good oil and filter, what you are using is perfect. But the key is making sure the oil level doesn't drop too far. Being two quarts low is not good for the engine - you have a limited amount of oil to work with, any oil loss means the remaining oil has to work harder to protect your engine. Generally what ends up happening is the oil consumption is accelerated - the primary cause of oil consumption (stuck piston ring / plugged oil return holes) have worsened because there wasn't enough oil to help keep them from building up more deposits. If this happens too often - then you have no choice but to rebuild / dump the car.

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Fish

I want to use the best oil and filter I can for my mothers Camry with oil consumption. Do you know a better filter and oil than VALVOLINE HIGH MILAGE OIL FULL SYNTHETIC 5w -30 and WIX filter or stay with this.

Fish also change oil at 3,000miles or 5,000 miles.

Fish. Every time I check oil does it matter what oil I put in car or I should put in same oil I put in when I changed oil.

Fish can you please answer my questions.

Thank Frank.

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Nope, stick with what you've used - Valvoline HM and WIX are hard to beat. Again - it is not a matter of the "best" oil and oil filter - the key is keeping an eye on the oil levels and topping off immediately when it is low.

 

Oil change interval - stick with what the manufacturer says - 5000 miles. Shorter oil changes may or may not help - depends on where the oil is going (leaking around the valve stem seals, stuck piston rings, plugged oil return holes, stuck PCV valve, worn cylinders, burnt valves, etc.

 

In cases of excessive oil consumption - really doesn't matter if you have the same oil, just need to get oil in there. If you have some Valvoline High Mileage oil around - great, use that to top off. If you have some synthetic oil left over from your Corolla or have some conventional oil left from a previous oil change - use that. Different grade - as long as it is not too far off, use it. Any oil is better than no oil.

 

If the car hasn't gotten a compression and leak down check - might consider getting one. If the compression is bad or it fails the leak down test - you've pretty much have to do a rebuild / swap / or dump the car at that point. No additive or oil can fix it at that point.

 

If you cannot check the oil before each and every time the car is driven - you can give yourself a "cushion" of oil by overfilling the crankcase slightly. 1/2 quart should be plenty - and still safe to run without worrying about oil aeration. I don't like to do this, as it makes it harder to find out exactly how much the engine is actually consuming - but it will help in cases where you can't check on it every day.

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Fish

A Month ago when I changed the oil in my mothers CAMRY I changed the PCV VALVE. I change it every 10,000 miles and I also changed PCV HOSE it was dry rotted.

Give me your honest opinion: I went to ROY AND SONS. A lot of people in my area told me he was good.He did a compression test.

Compression test : cost 25. He did not give me the results. Roy said the pistons were scorn. Also he said for a car of the age of my mothers car it is common for them to leak a quart between 600- 1200 miles. So he said the leaking is normal on an older car. He recommended engine restorer. He said his shop had good results with the product. He also said it is cheaper than a new car or a new engine.

Fish do you think I should get another compression test.

Fish would it also benefit me to do a couple of short oil changes like you did on your car that helped with oil consumption and also use a larger filter.

I always keep quarts of oil on hand for when I have to refill the oil. Should I buy the store brand or buy something like Valvoline.

Give me your opinion

Thanks

Frank

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If the shop did not give you any numbers, then IMO, they didn't do a very good compression test. I don't know anything about Roy and Sons - but when I do a compression test, I write the number's down so I don't forget. Should be written down on the worksheet at the very least.

 

To give you a diagnostic of scorn rings from just a compression test - that is pretty far stretch, as it could be any number of things causing that. It is possible it is scorn rings - but that would have meant that compression was abnormally low, ie. it would have failed compression testing.

 

Engine Restorer works on older engines just fine - I would not put that in the Camry, as it is stuck rings or clogged drain holes - it would potentially make the problems worse.

 

Definitely get another compression test, have they do a leak down test. Cost should be no more than a basic diagnostic fee. Short oil change interval wouldn't hurt - but you have to find out "what" is happening. Shortening the oil change interval only works if there is suspect clogged rings / plugged holes. Even then, it may not do anything. If you do a piston soak or add certain additives, then a shorter change interval may be worthwhile. Find out what is happening first, diagnose the issue properly - then address it with possible fixes. Otherwise, you'd be wasting money and time.

 

If can afford to stock up and buy the same oil that went into the car - then do so. Hopefully, the engine just started its oil consumption. Being down two quarts is pretty bad - but monitor it and see what the actual consumption rate is. If it is something like 1500-2000 miles per quart - might be able turn it around.

 

If the car gets up to the point where it is consuming oil at an alarming rate - like few hundred miles per quart, and you don't want to buy a new car/don't want to rebuild - then buy the cheapest oil you can get your hands on and use that to top off. No sense spending more money, as the engine won't care what you put in it.

Lots of early 1ZZ-FE owners and some Scion owners with the 2AZ-FE engine carry a case of oil with them at all times. Fill up when needed. No need to buy $5-$6+ quart Valvoline Synthetic Blend High Mileage oil, when conventional Supertech or store branded oil is $2 a quart or less. When you get to the 100-200 mile per quart range - it doesn't really matter what you put in there, oil-wise, as nothing will slow it down at that point.

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Fish

These are things I do not know:

How do I find out where car is actually leaking.

Does compression test tell you this. Why do I also need a leak down.

When I call different shops I tell them I need a compression test with leak down test.

 

Fish a little back round on my mothers car:

My mother car is at 88k. When it was at somewhere in the 50-60,000 mile range we were driving and oil light came on. When I checked level the car was totally out of oil. It took 4 quarts. I did not know at this point it was burning oil and the problems with this engine.

I took it to my old mechanic for a leak check and he said oil pan gasket was leaking he replaced it.

At about 75k she was driving car and oil light came on. She pulled into gas station immediately. They said she was 3 quarts low.

I took it to my old mechanic again for a leak and he said this time it was the valve cover gasket.

Now the car has 88k and is still leaking or burning oil.

I just wanted to give you a little back round.

Thanks

Frank

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Got it - running nearly completely out of oil - not a good sign. Even one time is enough to permanently damage the engine. The low oil pressure light - should never see that come on in normal conditions - once you see it, damage is done.

 

At this point, basically damage control - keep it from getting worse.

 

Where is it leaking? External leaks, look for telltale drips and wetspots on the engine. Put a piece of cardboard under the car, let it sit from some time, see if any oil drips onto the cardboard. If oil is dripping onto the cardboard, then you have to find the leak and try and pinpoint the source. May have to wipe some areas, and keep looking for the source. In some hard to detect leaks, they sometimes use a tracer dye in the oil - use a special light want to find the leak that way.

 

Internally consuming oil - that's where the two tests come into. Compression test, should be done when the engine is warm, cold compression testing is OK, but less reliable. That will usually tell you if there are any leaks past the piston rings and the cylinder wall. If compression is low - they should squirt in a little oil and recheck compression. If compression jumps up, then you found a cylinder with a bad piston ring. Leak down test - similar to a compression test (think of it as a compression test in reverse), but this time, they try and hold pressure in each cylinder. Engine is set to TDC (top dead center) - they use compressed air to fill the cylinder, put a gauge on it and measure the amount of time before pressure drops below a certain point. If pressure bleeds away immediately, that points to a possible leak at the valve or valve seals.

 

Correct, when you call the shops - ask them for a compression test and leakdown test.

 

I am curious on the oil pan gasket leaking. This Camry doesn't use a gasket - it uses a form in place gasket "sealant" material (FIPG). If it gray in color from the factory, replacement sealant in black in color. Any other color there and someone screwed up. Tough to replicate the correct bead size at a shop, as it is put on by a robot at the factory. Oil pans on the 2AZ-FE are not known to leak - usually it is something above them, timing chain tensioner and/or timing chain cover that is leaking.

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Fish

VALVE GUIDES: could that be the problem. Leaking stuck or clogged valve guides.

At this point have to get a new test because ROY did not give me any numbers.

Where do you get conventional super tech oil. I mean the real cheap oil.

Do I have any other options if I do not get another compression test and leak down test.

Thanks Frank.

Edited by Bull6791

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Nothing to really stick or clog with valve guides. These generally don't wear out or get damaged, unless you bent a valve. If these are bad - you got a lot bigger issues than oil consumption.

 

Supertech is Walmart house branded oil - I just mentioned it as an example. Myself, used their synthetic oil for some time, as it was about 1/2 the cost of other synthetics. Ran into one bad drain - looked like the oil gelled, never used them again. But for a really have oil burner - doesn't really matter.

 

They used to sell Sunoco branded oil - really cheap, something like $0.50-$0.70 a quart. Terrible oil, but cheap enough to feed an oil burner.

 

At this point - I have no idea what your oil consumption is like - light or heavy. Have to find out what your current consumption rate is - then figure out the next steps.

Step #1 - compression and leak down test. If those are bad - STOP - engine is done, have to rebuild it or scrap the car. If you can't get them done - just keep oil in the car to keep it topped off until you can find someone to do it. This is somewhat important, without this information, you just guessing at what is wrong, only reacting to the current symptoms, not fixing anything.

 

Step #2 - make sure you have some oil on hand, don't care what you get - monitor the oil consumption closely, everyday is possible - find out what the oil consumption is like, how many miles need to be driven before you consume a quart of oil. Make sure the car is parked on level ground, hasn't been run recently (make sure oil all drains back into the pan), note the level of oil on the dipstick. If possible, try and measure it that same way / place. ALWAYS top off the oil when it is low, make sure you note how much oil is used that time. Could take a while, from what I've gathered from most 2AZ-FE owners - the car could run for months and not drink any oil, then one day - its a quart low or worse.

 

Step #3 - continue to monitor oil consumption, see if it is stable or getting better / getting worse. UOA helps in these cases, can identify wear metals and oil condition (viscosity, flash point, fuel dilution, etc) - could tell you if dropping the OCI will help or not. Stick with the same oil brand and filter during the whole process, if possible. Don't want to introduce unnecessary variables in measurements. Once you've established a trend of the level of oil consumption + UOA analysis supports it, only then try dropping oil change intervals - monitor again. If oil consumption drops, then stick with a shorter interval until it stabilizes or even goes away. If it doesn't change - switch to a different motor oil, keep the same filter for now. Monitor for changes.

 

This will be a pretty drawn out procedure - more so if the car is not driven very much. But you have to establish trends or you will be diagnosing this blind.

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Fish

From what I read I could also be VALVE STEM SEALS.

Can you explain this to me please. Thanks

What I do not understand is: 2azfe engine I consuming a lot of oil because of stuck piston rings and clogged oil control ring holes.

Other toyota engines do not burn oil because oil control rings do not clog.

Fish are oil holes supposed to be a certain size so they do not clog

Also fish did they make the oil holes on the 2azfe engine too small.

What size are holes supposed to be so they do not clog

. Frank.

Edited by Bull6791

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Possible it could be leaking valve stem seals, could also be a combination of seals and stuck rings / clogged return holes. Seal issues generally manifest as visible blueish smoking from the exhaust on cold starts as well as from accelerating from a stop. Some cases, you could have bad seals and no visible smoke produced from the exhaust. Hence why you need to do a compression AND leak down test to see what is really going on.

 

As for the stuck piston rings and clogged oil return holes - it can happen to any engine, and has been and still is an issue for many manufacturers. The 1ZZ-FE and the 2AZ-FE are the two more visible ones in the Toyota line up (at least in the US), as owners expect nothing but Toyota bulletproof reliability. Forums like these make it sound like that the problem is epidemic, tons of cars have this issue, where the reality is - only a small fraction of all the cars actually have oil control issues.

 

There is a overall concensus that there are NOT enough oil drainage holes or they are too small in size on the piston. Enlarging them and/or adding more holes "seems" to fix the issue. This is actually a old school workaround for cars that consume oil - so this is nothing new. I've been doing similar "mods" on some of my older domestic and import project cars for years.

 

But it is not as trival as I make it sound, the hole size, hole number, hole placement all depend on the piston itself - an enormous amount of design and engineering went into these return holes. So in that sense, these engines do have the right number / right size - for most situations. The real problem is trying to push lower friction, less reciprocating mass, tighter tolerances - it puts a heavier emphasis on vehicle maintenance.

 

So why do some cars consume oil - likely a result of a combination of manufacturing tolerances failures with mis-managed maintenance routine. Depending on how they are driven - I'm betting that lots of cars are not getting the right amount of maintenance they should be getting. Can't put all the fault on the manufacturer, can't put all of it on the owner either - in the end, comes down to both finding the right routine to get the most life out of the car + a little bit of luck. Sometimes you get unlucky and land yourself with a really bad car - it happens.

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Does ROCK AUTO sell coolant. I want to see if they sell the TURBO POWER COOLANT. I am having hard time finding it. Only play in my area that sells it is PEP BOYS. that's what company said. Company is Canadian.

Question: where are the VALVE STEAMS AND VALVE SEALS LOCATED.

the 2azfe engine: so it did come with the right # of oil drain holes in control rings and the oil holes are the right size.

Fish most things I hear and read about this engine is that because oil drain holes on control rings get clogged when TOYOTA first made this engine they made oil holes too small.

Fish the car has 88k on it. The whole life of the car I used conventional oil and changed oil every 3k. This last oil change is the first time ever I used synthetic oil. The HM OIL. I was going to change oil every 5 k now. I am wondering if I should go back to conventional oil and 3k oil changes.

Frank

Edited by Bull6791

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Rockauto sells hard parts, they don't sell any fluids, as far as I can see. Might have no choice but to go to the vendors the manufacturer contracts with or see if you can order some online.

 

Valve seals are in the cylinder head, right below the lifter bucket and valve springs, they wrap around the valve stems. They are sitting above the piston assembly, do not touch the pistons at all.

 

As for the drain holes being too small - that was the original concensus from owners, not Toyota. Some engines did get revised pistons with larger holes and sometimes, more holes. But those pistons look significantly different as well - some use lower tension springs to offset the increase in mass to help add more meat to drill larger holes. If this is a manufacturing issue - you'll find people on both sides of this - some blame Toyota, some blame the owners. As for the right amount of holes, right size - that is still up for debate. My gut feeling is that for most people, they will not see any consumption issues - so the engineers got it right for many, but not all owners fall into their expected usage.

 

Even though most owners consider themselves normal drivers, following a light duty cycle conditions - many actually drive the car close to what Toyota calls Special Operating conditions (read severe operating conditions). If I had to fault Toyota's service manual, it would be that they offered two schedules - one normal, one severe. Should have just stuck with the severe schedule, probably have less people running into issues. The maintenance schedule has a bit of leeway built in - but stuff happens. Even with my maintenance schedule, I've been sidetracked and couldn't get to some task at some point or another. So some scheduled tasks get shifted to the right and while the miles pile on.

 

I happen to own two of the known oil consuming engines - my 1ZZ-FE doesn't burn a drop with 205K miles on it, while my 2AZ-FE with 70K started using about a quart every 2000 or so miles, then dropped to almost nothing, but now has started back up again. Much of that I feel was attributed to the critical engine break-in procedure. My Corolla was new when I got it, drove the nuts off the car, never babied it - runs great now. The Matrix was bought lightly used, obviously didn't see any maintenance (never got a single oil change) - even going in, I knew it had a good chance to start burning oil and it did - now I've got it down to an acceptable range because I proactively attacked it with an aggressive maintenance schedule + monitored it closely.

 

But the bottom line - unlikely to see any relief from Toyota - they don't see it as a safety issue, just not enough people are complaining about it. When you make 100's of thousands of these engines worldwide, and only a couple of thousand reported cases coming to the dealerships - that is not enough to do anything about it. Toyota is aware of people having oil consumption, that's why there is a procedure to monitor oil consumption and ways to address it (TSBs).

 

As for oil and oil changes - at this point, you'll have to experiment with the car. There is no guarantee that synthetic or high mileage oil or shorter oil change intervals will have any appreciable effect on the oil consumption. Or that going back to conventional will do anything better / worse. The thing that likely hurt you was the car running low on oil in the first place. Once you see that low oil pressure lamp come on - engine has already seen some damage. No oil or additive can fix it now. Best thing to do is to keep up with the maintenance and monitor that oil level often, topping off when needed. Find a baseline for the car, establish a trend. Change one thing, monitor it again, noting any changes. Go from there.

Edited by fishexpo101

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