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tomservo

Putting In New Rings, Tool Questions.

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Sounds like it could be helpful to add ATF to the oil to help clean the engine. I will try to remember to do that just before I am ready to change my oil.

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Just spent all night dicking with the damn thing :) I got stuck when I found out you had to have a female torx socket (damn them for making another fastener type). Anyways, it's frightening how much varnishing is in the engine - but after i took the cams out, i was very impressed at how good the cam bearing surfaces look. Based on the buildup of varnish and carbon in the lower end (and valve cover), I'm going to go out on a limb and say that there's nothing that could unstick the rings automagically - at this point i'm just hoping i can get them out with brute force! So far so good, i hope i can get the head off without removing the timing chain cover - it looks like a nightmare to get off (any advice guys?) i know the head is siliconed to it, but it's possible i can shear it loose with a little persuasion

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How much varnish was on there - did it look like this:

http://photobucket.com/albums/v620/fishexp...djust%20Valves/

 

I opened it up to check for valve clearances a while ago (didn't need any adjustment) and to try and see why the engine is so noisy (louding ticking at startup and even when it is slightly warm, gone when fully warmed up- turns out to be "normal").

 

As for the timing chain cover - I believe it has to come off. There are two studs that pop out of the cylinder head and get bolted up against the timing chain cover. Might be able to work it out - but the service manual indicated that cover has to come off. To get that cover off - you got to take a mess of stuff off (crankshaft pulley, alternator, water pump, belt tensioner, etc.) Not real hard to get off - but you'll wish the engine was pulled after trying to get them bolts offs. Something like 11 or 12 bolts on the timing chain cover alone.

 

Come to think of it - I have no idea how you got those cams out without taking the timing cover off. When I took the valve cover off - that chain didn't even come close to slipping off the sprockets. I would have be too afraid to undo the cam bearing caps and wiggle it out that way.

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How much varnish was on there - did it look like this:

http://photobucket.com/albums/v620/fishexp...djust%20Valves/

 

I opened it up to check for valve clearances a while ago (didn't need any adjustment) and to try and see why the engine is so noisy (louding ticking at startup and even when it is slightly warm, gone when fully warmed up- turns out to be "normal").

 

there's varnish in there? i should take a picture. think white tshirt at a cherry pie eating contest. almost all surfaces look vaguely like the end of the VVT unit.

 

please elaborate, i get a kind of wobbly clicking sound at startup (and during certain acceleration levels), i think mine is heat shield + vibration related. how do i check valve clearances? I ran a couple feelers between my valves at TDC and the lifters - seems just about .006" (the most complete set of feelers i could find was .006 and up) the .009" feeler was like trying to stick a truck in there the valves themselves (at least the intake valves) look remarkably clean. my expectations for the exhaust side are considerably lower

 

As for the timing chain cover - I believe it has to come off. There are two studs that pop out of the cylinder head and get bolted up against the timing chain cover. Might be able to work it out - but the service manual indicated that cover has to come off. To get that cover off - you got to take a mess of stuff off (crankshaft pulley, alternator, water pump, belt tensioner, etc.) Not real hard to get off - but you'll wish the engine was pulled after trying to get them bolts offs. Something like 11 or 12 bolts on the timing chain cover alone.

i've got it loose and thanks to the oil, the silicone was soft as jello.. i just can't get the damn head to come off, i've never been good at yanking them - always seem stuck and then i'd get a friend to give it a tug and it's comes off like it was spring loaded.. I'm wondering if the dowels are stuck with varnish. I tried some judicious prying (none of it on the gasket surfaces!!) and it moves in all the requisite directions, just not all at the same time. I'm going to pick up some rope and pulleys in the morning (i work overnights) and try that on - i'm working in a storage unit and there are some steel beams that hold up the roof

 

Come to think of it - I have no idea how you got those cams out without taking the timing cover off. When I took the valve cover off - that chain didn't even come close to slipping off the sprockets. I would have be too afraid to undo the cam bearing caps and wiggle it out that way.

 

determination and grit.. it works and it's not as hard or risky as it might seem... you have to move the exhaust cam towards the intake cam (to give you enough slack) then angle the cam 'down' into the valve cover - of course you have to take out the tensioner but that's no big deal (compared the the serpentine tensioner, that's a clunky contraption!) and then slip the chain off - the real problem isn't a lack of slack, it's that there's no clearance from the timing chain cover to the sprocket. Can you confirm if the clearance at the crankshaft timing chain sprocket is the same or do i have a risk of slippage down there while the chain is loose and i'm turning the motor to move the pistons?

Edited by tomservo

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Yeah, my valvetrain was pretty clean at the time - just some deposits on the VVT-i mechanism and some on the valvecover itself. I just wondered how mine looked compared to others - only had a hand full here to compare it to.

 

If you can barely get a 0.006 feeler gauge in there - you are probably alright. The engine, by design, is a bit noisier than others. The specs call for COLD clearances at 0.15mm - 0.25mm on the intake side, 0.25mm - 0.35mm on the exhaust side. You just have to make sure that the timing is set at TDC (may have to give it another 360 degree turn if the timing marks on the sprockets don't line up). You can measure the intake and exhaust clearances on cylinder 1, intake on cylinder 2, and exhaust on cylinder 3 at the same time - give the crank a 360 turn and measure the remaining valves.

 

As for the head - those studs might be gummed up - they also stick out the side of the head (parallel to the cams). Might be able to wiggle it loose - but it may be that the timing cover has to come off. That will also make it easier on you later - when you need to turn the crank to get pistons to move up or down. Don't want to chance the timing chain to jump off the crank sprocket in there. Also gives you access to visually inspect the timing chain guides. Setting tension on the chain is automatic (you've seen the tensioner in there) - I haven't checked clearances at the sprocket myself - I just line up the match marks on the chain with the sprockets.

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i got some pulleys and rope and via a sort of contraption (and removing the timing chain guide bolt - doh!) i lifted the head off with ease.. pulled out a piston and i'm going to take my digicam in the morning when i go back. good thing i've got a bicycle with an engine to get around with, bad enough that there's snow and ice all over at least i don't have to pedal thru it

 

on another note, i reamed the middle two cylinders (it's still sitting at TDC) and pulled out one of the cylinders (3rd from the timing chain), this is the one that was at 138/165psi (without/with oil). the new rings seem to have a closer gap than the old ones, lots of crud in there but the compression rings seemed to move around okay.. the oil ring was caked with gunk. the ring bearings look okay, some polished looking areas, and one small groove. I figured the rod bearings would have taken the worst beating

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I am still trying to understand why you did all this work to begin with. Was your car burning lots of oil and you found that the rings were bad or sticking? Now that you have it apart, have you determined what was the cause of you needing to dissassemble? Did the car not run and you had no choice to do it when it is that cold?? It could not have waited for warmer conditions? Seems like you are getting some great experience and I would love to see your work in progress. Sounds like a very educating endeavor. Keep us up on your status.

Edited by Bikeman982

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I am still trying to understand why you did all this work to begin with. Was your car burning lots of oil and you found that the rings were bad or sticking? Now that you have it apart, have you determined what was the cause of you needing to dissassemble? Did the car not run and you had no choice to do it when it is that cold?? It could not have waited for warmer conditions? Seems like you are getting some great experience and I would love to see your work in progress. Sounds like a very educating endeavor. Keep us up on your status.

 

Well, it was burning 1 qt every 80 miles, and I'm pretty sure that's not normal - my mileage is also pretty stank, like 27mpg highway. It's very flat here in north dakota, too. Also had one of the cylinders stop firing for a while a few weeks ago, and that's not cool 60 miles from anywhere when the wind chill's below zero. Anyways, I'm not sure what qualifies at rings sticking - they all seemed to move okay, but then again they weren't compressed against all that crud and grunge in the grooves. No abnormal wear in the cylinders themselves, a couple of tiny wear grooves (less than what I'd consider normal) and you could still see all the original honing marks. Two of the rod bearings were thrashed, and I wish I could have had a shot at the crank bearings but I just can't take it that far right now. The valves actually look quite good, some carbon on the intake valves, some white crud on the exhaust. I took a couple pictures after reinstalling the head. Used a lot of brake cleaner and carb cleaner today.

 

Progress today: got the rings all changed, rod bearings changed, installed the pistons and head.

 

Tommorow: finish connecting all the crapola to the head (cams, manifolds, hoses, wires) and install the oil pan. Fill, and start. Not sure how far i'll get but I should be able to get er done.

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so you rehoned? if you didnt then those new rings will never fully seat and you'll have the head off again to do this all over the right way alot sooner than you want to.

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so you rehoned? if you didnt then those new rings will never fully seat and you'll have the head off again to do this all over the right way alot sooner than you want to.

 

yeah I rehoned with a medium grit stone type hone.. i figured the fresh honing would provide nice sharp edges to help seat the new rings (ie the reason for honing). I put assembly lube on the rod bearings and some engine oil on the rings before I put the pistons in

 

as far as educating experience.. i help my friend rebuild his 3000GT VR-4 ('96). we removed the engine and rebuilt the turbos, kept the same rings and bearings as they were all good. better lifters, oil pump etc. i've put head gaskets in a few cars so most of this isn't all that new, it's not rocket science, just a pain in the @$$.

Edited by tomservo

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It's alive! I ran it very gently and did the first oil change today.. started right up, runs okay.. what a turd to fill with coolant though - at least my 90 civic had a 'burp' valve. Is there some provision to bleed the air off of our motors?

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Great job! Hard part is over - now it is a waiting game of driving easy and monitoring fluids, etc. to makes sure that there are no issues.

 

There is a block drain plug - but nothing to allow faster filling of the cooling system.

 

I just jacked up the front end a bit and add the coolant that way to make sure that hte radiator is the highest point of the cooling system. Usually flush with distilled water first until everythig runs clear (takes several gallons) - then add half the total cooling capacity in half, fill up with straight coolant - then top the rest off with distilled water. That way I know I have a 50/50 mix. Fill the coolant overflow tank - it will pull in coolant as needed when the engine cools.

 

Hopefully this solved your oil consumption issues. Keep us posted on the progress.

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Great job! Hard part is over - now it is a waiting game of driving easy and monitoring fluids, etc. to makes sure that there are no issues.

 

There is a block drain plug - but nothing to allow faster filling of the cooling system.

 

I just jacked up the front end a bit and add the coolant that way to make sure that hte radiator is the highest point of the cooling system. Usually flush with distilled water first until everythig runs clear (takes several gallons) - then add half the total cooling capacity in half, fill up with straight coolant - then top the rest off with distilled water. That way I know I have a 50/50 mix. Fill the coolant overflow tank - it will pull in coolant as needed when the engine cools.

 

Hopefully this solved your oil consumption issues. Keep us posted on the progress.

 

 

Yeah I filled it while it was still on the jackstands but mine aren't the hugest - i followed the procedure in the haynes book and it looks okay, heater's hot etc

 

I feel bad, I woke up late and drove it to work cold (and it's chilly out) :/ i plugged it in when i got in the garage though - it's like 2 blocks. I took it easy, just letting it idle down the road.

 

I did take 3 pictures, i'll post them eventually - nothing spectacular

Edited by tomservo

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I am still trying to understand why you did all this work to begin with. Was your car burning lots of oil and you found that the rings were bad or sticking? Now that you have it apart, have you determined what was the cause of you needing to dissassemble? Did the car not run and you had no choice to do it when it is that cold?? It could not have waited for warmer conditions? Seems like you are getting some great experience and I would love to see your work in progress. Sounds like a very educating endeavor. Keep us up on your status.

 

Well, it was burning 1 qt every 80 miles, and I'm pretty sure that's not normal - my mileage is also pretty stank, like 27mpg highway. It's very flat here in north dakota, too. Also had one of the cylinders stopped firing for a while a few weeks ago, and that's not cool 60 miles from anywhere when the wind chill's below zero. Anyways, I'm not sure what qualifies at rings sticking - they all seemed to move okay, but then again they weren't compressed against all that crud and grunge in the grooves. No abnormal wear in the cylinders themselves, a couple of tiny wear grooves (less than what I'd consider normal) and you could still see all the original honing marks. Two of the rod bearings were thrashed, and I wish I could have had a shot at the crank bearings but I just can't take it that far right now. The valves actually look quite good, some carbon on the intake valves, some white crud on the exhaust. I took a couple pictures after reinstalling the head. Used a lot of brake cleaner and carb cleaner today.

 

Progress today: got the rings all changed, rod bearings changed, installed the pistons and head.

 

Tommorow: finish connecting all the crapola to the head (cams, manifolds, hoses, wires) and install the oil pan. Fill, and start. Not sure how far i'll get but I should be able to get er done.

So there was no obvious cause of why the engine burned so much oil? How did the rings look and if they were not bad, why did you change them? You changed the rings and honed the cylinders to get a better fit, right? What was the reason that one cyclinder stopped firing? Could it have been something besides the rings? When that happened did the car just run rough, or did it not run at all? Seems like you had a poor performing engine, but from what you described does not indicate much of a cause for it to be that way, except for two of the rod bearings being thrashed. Did you remove the head with eveything intact? I am about to undertake major engine work and I have little experience with it. I plan on following the repair manual of course, so that may help. I am hoping your descriptions will give me insight into what I should be looking for as far as bad or worn parts that may cause the engine to run poorly.

Edited by Bikeman982

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